Parenting partner conflict happens and many times couples focus on the wrong thing when they disagree. What are parenting partners really fighting about? Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell MACP give you the reason behind every parenting partner conflict and the "how to" fix it.
Parenting partner conflict happens and many times couples focus on the wrong thing when they disagree. What are parenting partners really fighting about? Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell MACP give you the reason behind every parenting partner conflict and the "how to" fix it.
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents.
Speaker 2:They show about couple relationships how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken.
Speaker 1:Hiya parents Our Dad Dr Steven Mitchell and our Mom Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Steven Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell and we are back to the podcast.
Speaker 1:It's been a long time We've taken a break.
Speaker 2:We have taken a break. We summer happened. We were traveling.
Speaker 1:And we're back.
Speaker 2:We're doing things, but we're happy to be back, and today we wanted to talk about a conversation that we had with one of our friends while we were on vacation not long ago, and they ask a very interesting question that we thought might be an interesting question for you.
Speaker 1:It was great yeah.
Speaker 2:So, erin, why don't you tell the story?
Speaker 1:Sure. So we were with some of our friends and it's a friend I've had for a very long time and this is kind of one of those things where you know people, you know for a long time, you know what they do, you know what they like, like kind of what they do, but you don't really know what it is they do. So she said, like you know, I know what you do, but like I know, what you do, but what do you?
Speaker 1:do. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And she said I guess I mean like, do you find yourself having the same conversations, do you find yourself? And I was like, are you asking like what are the themes we talk about? And she's like that is what I want to know. Are there themes? Is there like a recurring topic or something that comes up with most every couple? And that is what we have been talking about. It was, it was a great question. Yeah, it was a great question for us. Yeah, kind of figure out.
Speaker 2:What is it that we actually do? But yeah, I think I think the the simple answer to that is yes, there's, there's tons, there are tons. Maybe there are themes, another words, you know, kind of consistent problems or conflicts that couples have. That that we talked to and I think what you were saying about it, aaron, was. I thought we're really interesting in terms of the like, how you answered that question, or did you answer her? Were we just talking?
Speaker 1:No, I did.
Speaker 1:I answered her, and then we did talk about it in more depth. I said I'm going to use me and Steven as an example, like we'll be the couple that comes and talks to us, just for ease of sort of dialogue, and so that's what I'll do here as well. So I said, a couple like me and Steven, we would come, sit in front of me and Steven, and and I would say, as the couple coming in, like so we're here because we want to be close. You know, we, we used to be close. I mean, we've always had some problems, but you know, like we've been able to work through it.
Speaker 1:And now we've had kids for a couple years. And I said, you know, that part is something they can change. How old our kids are, how many there are, that's variable, sure, but the feeling is an end. Typically, I'm the one who says Aaron says I try to bring this up like I feel like there's some distance between us, or I wish we were closer and that language changes, but the feeling is like we are not as connected as we would like to be, as I would like for us to be.
Speaker 2:Can I add in there, like I think, when you're saying, like the distinctive marker is, we had kids and then it felt like things changed. I think in terms of those connection and closeness.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do think there's a marker for sure. But I think most couples say it's not like we were great or perfect or had all these, but we had the time to talk about it or it didn't feel quite so intense.
Speaker 2:We each had our own thing that we could go do. And just to be clear too, this is a no way to say that kids are the problem.
Speaker 1:Kids are not the problem.
Speaker 2:Kids are not the problem. It's just the sort of the lived experience, the life context of we're a couple that didn't have children and now we do have children and our relationship seems to be different.
Speaker 1:I think that, yes, our relationship seems to be different, but I think that that isn't enough to bring someone to reach out to Steven and me it's. I don't feel cared for, I don't feel like you know how to love me, I don't feel like you want me, I don't feel like you're listening when I say I'm desperate for some change. I don't, whatever that is the part that does change that, the way that's expressed, but the feeling is very much often the same. Then I think the comment that Steven would say is do you want to do your part?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to tell you what I think I would say, and then you might correct, correct it, but I'm going to do it anyway. I think that what I would say is you know what it feels like I, no matter what I do, it's never enough, I can't get it right and I feel like I'm always failing. I'm trying, I'm trying to. You know you're saying you're feeling disconnected or you're not feeling close, or you're not feeling loved, or you're not feeling like I care whatever the the way that is being expressed comes out, and I am sitting there trying to do all the things and it and it's never enough, and I don't feel appreciated and I'm tired of just being told that I'm failing. This is what I would say.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that is very much your expression of that. I think the nuance there, I think, is that that failing word doesn't resonate for everybody in your seat.
Speaker 2:I think that sometimes we hear Aaron, I always feel like I'm failing. I'm trying to tell you that in this podcast.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:I think there's some things you need to change.
Speaker 1:So there, I think the other common things we hear are like it would be a lot easier to hear that if it wasn't coming out as a criticism. It would be like I actually feel like I do a lot of the things you're saying I don't do, but even when I do, nine times out of 10, I do that. That one time I don't you pick up on it.
Speaker 2:That's a big one.
Speaker 1:Or I feel like-.
Speaker 2:The nine out of 10, the one time out of 10 is the thing that gets highlighted and constantly feeling criticized, yeah.
Speaker 1:That there's a I think that person in that seat is Stephen in this situation feels very evaluated Like-.
Speaker 2:Monitored.
Speaker 1:Monitored. That is disappointing and disappointed, like it doesn't really matter. And then I think that either leads to a ton of defensiveness, so they get really reactive about like you don't notice anything. I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I think that that's a really good point, because I do think the experience of like how that shakes out is different, I think. My one of my questions is so we've just described that little-.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not even halfway through the cycle.
Speaker 2:That little dynamic Like is anything beginning to feel like you or your partner? Have you had a conversation similar to this? And just kind of cluing into that, just trying to kind of track with this here and then I do think like the feeling of the me in that scenario is very defended, is very like sensitive in terms of don't say that I'm doing anything wrong, or every time you might voice a complaint or a need or a want, it feels like an attack or an assault, like if things get real, they just get real prickly. In that scenario I think.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes. So I think honestly we probably should have started with this. This is very much chicken and egg here, so like there isn't. We started with that. This starts, then this starts, but that's just the person who speaks first. But like the way we just presented, it is like my, the way I presented that causes your reaction, and then your reaction causes mine, but really this just becomes the cycle and it doesn't.
Speaker 1:there really isn't a starting point, it's just. This is how it all goes, and it all happens all at once is how it feels.
Speaker 2:So what would you say would be the converse? So kind of the me in this scenario maybe gets defensive and feels attacked all the time.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's one very common response.
Speaker 2:I think the other is withdraw. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So like you just shut all the way down, you kind of don't hear Disengage yes, Not yeah. Like very much. You take solace in your phone.
Speaker 2:You take or just in your kids, like I think the withdrawal is very specific in some ways to you as my partner, if, like that's because then that partner still might be, like you know they're engaged in work or they're engaged in you know, kind of trying to be.
Speaker 1:Don't say that, partner. You lost me there. Who's same, steven and Erin.
Speaker 2:Say Steven, steven, is that partner?
Speaker 1:Oh, we're calling you disengaged, but you might be very tuned in to work.
Speaker 2:To other things. Yes, yes, yes, but I'm disengaged from our relationship. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So I think the sort of the two most common reactions are defensiveness and withdrawal.
Speaker 2:What about your side of the?
Speaker 1:And then how do I react to that?
Speaker 2:No, what like? What is? Yeah? What is your place If it's defensiveness and withdrawal? What is your common like feeling? Okay, well, I think.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'm gonna answer your question, but I'm gonna finish the equation. So I think it's in terms of the cycle. So I said we're not as connected as I wanna be, and then you say I did that thing you asked me to do to feel connected and you didn't even notice and you didn't even care, or you withdraw and disengage. And then I think the next part for me is typically like in this conversation that we hear from couples Erin says something like I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you needed a gold medal every time you did the thing. That's normal standard of living. Just because you did that one thing, that one time, I didn't realize I needed to pat you on the back every single time.
Speaker 2:Do you hear it? Do you hear the sarcasm, the mockery?
Speaker 1:The hurt.
Speaker 2:The hurt, that's true.
Speaker 1:Which does absolutely come out in that way, sometimes as sarcasm and mockery cause. You're not wrong, but just as much as that withdrawal and that defensiveness is hurt, so too is the mockery and sarcasm doesn't make it okay by the one, but then the other response to that very often also is mutual withdrawal, mutual disengagement. Okay, fine, Then I'm gonna extra cue in on our kids and I'm gonna really pour myself into like okay, so I can just say like we're on pause.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna stop expressing myself. I'm gonna stop saying I won anything, and even I think even more profound. I'm gonna stop needing anything from you.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:Which you know, is a recipe for a very empty relationship.
Speaker 1:Correct. So I think it either gets pretty noisy with defensiveness and criticism or it gets pretty quiet, which can be very noisy with withdrawal and disengagement. And withdrawal and disengagement Pretty matched in terms of how much it hurts, Pretty matched in terms of how unloved and unseen and unappreciated they both feel. But the expressions I think can be different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I think that, yes, and so this is one of the primary themes, or probably, you know, I think, one of the another way to think about it is one of the relationship cycles or interactional patterns that couples come to us with, and it's a very familiar story, but it's really unique to every couple in terms of how they express it, how they experience it, how deep into it they are how resentful. How bitter. You know those kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think usually the things that get couples hung up is talking about that. One time they get really lost in that one content of that. One time I'm trying to think of a really common argument and nothing is really coming to mind. But so, for whatever reason, I don't even think we've ever heard this in a session and I don't even think we thought about it. But, like the coffee maker, like you know, like it bothers me every morning that you don't clean the coffee maker, that you never throughout the filter, that you never Empty whatever I don't, you're just leaving.
Speaker 2:You're just leaving it to me, it's always.
Speaker 1:Do like you always like you always do, and so I would say that and you'd say I, I did it. I do the coffee filter now. Yeah and the reason that that yeah, you mentioned that to me.
Speaker 2:And now the coffee. It's always, you know, it's always sparkling.
Speaker 1:You know, like empty that filter. I scrub it with.
Speaker 2:See what I mean, no matter what I do, it's never enough. If it, you know, it was the coffee maker, and now it's the laundry and I'm not. You know, I'm not doing school pickup and it's. If it's not one thing, it's another, and and then what happens is the couple is just stuck.
Speaker 1:There, correct? Yeah, and feeling like I, the Aaron comes in and she's like it's not a she always. But I say I don't know why I bother, like I'm not gonna tell you anything, I don't you know. Like sure you're right, I should. You know what that's that like? We should have had a little star chart for you. You know you, you haven't doing the coffee good for you.
Speaker 1:Right but it didn't really change how I felt, because the coffee maker is not the problem. The coffee maker can be a real problem, but it doesn't. It in and of itself isn't why I feel the way I feel. It might be a symbol of why I feel the way I feel, but yeah, it gets checked off the list and the feeling doesn't change. That is why that these tasks, these things are so important, hugely important, but they are never going to be the thing that solves the hurt or that creates the connection, if there is a deeper conversation, because it's the hurt that is.
Speaker 2:The is the fuel for the Interactional pattern that that is, you know, harmful for the disconnection and for the resentment. And so, from a, from a standpoint, you can change behavior, which, again, I encourage everyone to change behavior and to be, you know, responsive to, you know, to those kind of requests, but, at the same time, the sort of the feeling under it and the the hurt that is present, has to be resolved. Sure, or at least Stood, seen, touched, given air which I think helps, helps it feel resolved, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so yes, I think that is sort of the so what is it that we do?
Speaker 2:is we talk to couples all the time about that very pattern and the process of Hearing and understanding the hurt below. That's the foundational kind of fuel for that pattern and in Helping them hear one another with different ears and see one another with different eyes and even because, ideally, you start to recognize these things in yourself yeah, I have.
Speaker 1:Aaron starts to say, like man, I am mad, like fighting mad, and I want to say something horrible to Steven. I want to tell him like, oh, my goodness, you deserve a gold star, or I want to disappear. I just want to go to sleep. I want to turn on my Netflix and Check out and watch something and feel okay in my own little bubble and like just be near you.
Speaker 1:But not anywhere connected to you, whatever your sort of go-to reaction is. But I would begin to notice like that means something important is happening, like I would notice that myself. But almost always what has to happen first is then noticing that. And the other person when Steven Does either his thing, either his defensiveness or his Draw withdrawal to begin to notice something is happening, because Steven is not a defensive person.
Speaker 2:It's not who he wants to yeah, yeah, so that what that might look like is you, as you come to me and you say you know you didn't clean the coffee maker, and and that just feels like you're just leaving everything to me again. Not only do I have to Think about the kids, but I got to think about everything that has to do with the house. You know, kind of maybe a An illusion to the mental load you know. And and my response might be are you kidding me? I've cleaned the. I cleaned the coffee maker every day this week. Today's the only day that I didn't do it, and that's all you can remember.
Speaker 2:And I get defensive. But then what would happen? What would? What would be different is I would be like, oh wait, a second, I'm getting, I'm getting defensive, which means I've missed something about what you're trying to say. You're not talking you. The coffee maker is the, the medium is the conduit for you trying to express something much deeper, and I'm missing that and usually that much deeper places You're having an experience or a feeling where you don't feel connected, you don't feel seen, you don't feel.
Speaker 2:Love All those cut and and you came upstairs and the coffee maker activated that place and then I got defensive, which just Further verified that place. Whoa, I'm gonna stop being defensive. What are you? What are you trying to say to me? And what? What am I missing? Help me understand. Like, have you been feeling this way, you know, just today, just this morning? Has it? Has it been for a little while? Like let's Tell me about that? I think that that's how the Conversation can shift a little bit. And you're not talking about all that Tip of the iceberg stuff, but you're talking about that Below the surface stuff that is the fuel for what's happening a thousand percent.
Speaker 1:Yes, so, but I do think you still reinforce the idea that you recognize it in yourself first and I do think, yes, that is the ideal. I do think we've more often than not recognize it in our partner.
Speaker 2:first, so what would that? What would?
Speaker 1:that scenario you'd come in and be like Erin is critical, she is coming in hot about the coffee maker. Like what is happening? Am I, is there something I am missing? Like I'm so sorry I didn't do that. Like cast that aside and you don't even have to apologize, first and foremost, if you're not sorry, I don't even mean that, but like okay, I hear what you're saying and then you sort of like Hold on to that, put it on a shelf for a minute and say Is something else happening here? I really want to hear what you're trying to say, something where you just notice, or if you did have the reaction and you snap back and got defensive I would say Steven's defensive.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Steven doesn't want to be defensive. How did I just come in? What are we talking about? What, what? Why does this coffee filter mean so much to me? All of a sudden? What is happening, I think?
Speaker 2:I think it's easier initially to recognize our partner doing the protective strategy, defensive thing then I can yeah, yeah, I do yeah, and on some of her perhaps, and then on some level it's sort of like which, whichever happens, Absolutely like it's not, like there's a formula, it needs to be this or it's just sort of like no if you can get there, that is.
Speaker 1:Get there, crucial. And and then what? The other piece. I think that the part that we do with couples is when you said you get to, so you got the tip of the iceberg, but knowing what's underneath, I think most of the time couples don't know yes, and that's.
Speaker 2:We were on the same page. Way to go. We high-five job Boom I.
Speaker 1:I don't think we're trying not to say those things. I don't think I'm coming upstairs hot about the coffee filter, because I know what I meant to say and that's what I want to talk about. I don't think Erin knows what is under and I think that's what we can help couples sort of slow down and find that process Through to yeah, it's that mean to you.
Speaker 1:How did that come to be so important? And find out those deeper layers. Help them Take the time to pause in those reactive moments and figure out what it is that is informing that quick, fast and hot reaction because I think part of the theme too is Oftentimes couples come to us.
Speaker 2:I would say this is maybe anecdotal and I'm kind of this isn't, you know, fully researched. But oftentimes couples come to us at least two years in To Having kids there's research on this.
Speaker 1:I forget what it is, but I think couples don't seek therapy or Help outside to help. I think it's like five or six years after they begin to feel right but you're talking parents specific.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm just in, and just our kind of experience. Yes, you, you are exactly right. Like you know, I actually think that was like five to seven years, but I said six a way to go. You didn't say seven, and so I I just like repeating what you have to say as if it's my idea.
Speaker 2:You know what I was doing some research and I realized that it was five to seven years. But but I think that the reason that that is significant even if it is two years, five, whatever Is the reason couples don't know Is because that first of all, they've just been, you know, kind of making it. Making it, but it's like kind of excavating the story, like there is so much that has been stacked on top of um each partner in terms of how resentment builds and how bitterness builds, that well, it's also, I think, resentment and bitterness.
Speaker 1:while I think that you're accurate and those are right, they sound so negative it's also just plain old disconnection from self and partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and just yeah all those things and in a sense, you, you Do have to do some work to kind of tease all that apart and say, okay, how did this happen? And and what is really going on when you're not cleaning the coffee maker and I'm losing it? And and what is really going on when you just make a simple comment to me and I'm like super reactive and defensive or I just like it sends me into this. You know, I just want to leave, like though, those kinds of things um Take, take some work, um to to uncover, and so you know, kind of to your um, your friend's question, like what do we do? Is like that's what we do, like we, we spend our time trying to help couples uncover and tease apart, um, the, the story of what, the, the truer story of what's really happening. Um, and and I think the reason you do that is because then you know what to do.
Speaker 1:You can't really know what to do without understanding that that deeper, deeper level, because yeah, well, I'm just thinking about, like you know what to do, because you come back to that initial cycle of what Aaron and Stephen said when they came in it's like, no matter what I do, it's not enough. And because the reality is, because it's not about any of those things you're not doing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're doing the wrong thing. It is all of those things. Wrong focus, yeah.
Speaker 1:But like those are never gonna be the thing that touches that place. Enough until you've gone below the tip of the iceberg Again. You have to do all those things because those all do matter. Yeah, whatever your hot button issues are, they do matter, but they're never going to be enough to make it feel like, oh, you do see me, you do love me, until that layer is uncovered mutually. So you know, like I came with the list, like you feel just as unloved, just as unseen, just as unknowing, just as unappreciated, yeah, just as hurt, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:When you're feeling like I'm trying and I'm never succeeding. You prefer it when I'm not around you. All the you know.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know. You know there's a hesitation, you know in terms of, well, I don't wanna talk about that stuff because it's not gonna get us anywhere anyway. But I think what we're talking about is there's a way to talk about this stuff in a way that actually gets at the truth and does change things, and so I think you know one of our kind of missions in life, I think.
Speaker 1:I cannot wait to hear what this is.
Speaker 2:You don't know, one of our missions in life is to help couples know how to communicate in this way and how to tell each other those stories, so that they can have a different kind of relationship. I think that, like that's sort of the whole point, and so I think that you know.
Speaker 1:So that couples can feel known and loved. Yeah, yeah, I like that Exactly.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know there's all kinds of ways that you can do that. You know you can just sit down and just start Start trying to tell each other stories. You can go get help you know professional help. You can read. There's good literature out there that can kind of help guide you through that, and you know, I think, that the idea, though, is you have to do it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't happen naturally, right. And I think to your point about how couples wait. I think things do get easier. I think again I don't know the research on that either, but like people say it all the time, you know, like anecdotally, like, oh, when your kids get older, it's easier. Well, there are parts that are easier.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:But that the disconnection, the resentment.
Speaker 2:But things are already pretty bad. If you wait that long, I mean I think it's something. Well, it doesn't go away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like you might be sleeping more, but it doesn't mean that you don't still feel that hurt of like how absolutely unknown or unloved or unseen and appreciated you felt for as long as you felt it, and you don't just get over it.
Speaker 2:You don't.
Speaker 1:It seeps out in new ways in your new age. Your kids are, but it doesn't go away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I even think like part of the whole idea behind this podcast is to try to tell as many different stories that couples might be experiencing, to help give an example of how couples can get to that layer below.
Speaker 1:True.
Speaker 2:You know this conflict, this argument. Well, here's maybe the layer below, and so I think that maybe even for people out there, like, listen to the podcast, you know, we kind of title these kind of based on arguments or conflicts or difficulties that you might have. Like you know, look at the titles and pick the one that seems like it matches you and your partner and maybe listen to that as a way to have a jumping off part. I just think, like you do have to be intentional and you do have to engage in the process, and I think that that's another thematic thing is trying to support and encourage couples in doing that, because I think, naturally, we're just hesitant to do it because we don't have time, we're tired, it takes a lot of energy.
Speaker 1:I think all of those things are true, but I also think it's vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, that too.
Speaker 1:I think for myself about every single time we've had this conversation, and what causes me pause every single time, if I'm being the most honest as I possibly can, is my story says I'm leaveable. My parents got divorced, my dad died by suicide. When I feel this way from you, like you too, you're going to check out on me, and I don't want to feel that, I don't even want to think that, so I try not to for as long as I possibly can, until I'm reacting about coffee filters and that's like what is happening.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm feeling that.
Speaker 2:Well, and I've felt rejected and alone my whole life.
Speaker 1:This is the air and it's even talk.
Speaker 2:Not that, that's funny.
Speaker 1:It's just funny that we're both like.
Speaker 2:but but I mean, I think I felt that way. And so if I were to actually be reflective and be vulnerable, I think for me it's much more like I don't like feeling that way. And so if we're having a difficult time, like I think maybe at the very core of it, like it's that feeling of, oh, aaron doesn't want me, or I'm all alone, and I think that I don't want to feel that and so I wouldn't want to, you know, explore these things. And so, yeah, I mean I think that that's why we kind of balk at the process.
Speaker 1:And I mean even just knowing those two. You know couples, and this is from each of us. Who could blame us?
Speaker 2:For real. I'm going to keep doing it. I'm going to keep being defensive and withdrawal.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm going to do the same. No, but like knowing those things, it does provide an enormous amount of compassion, both for ourselves Like, of course, I would be nervous to say these things, and the truer layer would feel a little vulnerable, but also for others Like well, I'm not saying you have to do it perfectly or I'll reject you, but I know why you feel like that. Like I can absolutely see why it sounds like that.
Speaker 2:And vice versa, and why you would feel left.
Speaker 1:And you know, of course I'm not going to leave you Well, and so reactive to the feeling that I might feel left.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I don't think it's. I do think it's all those things you said, but I do think it's the most vulnerable thing that we are asked to do in relationship, and then add to it the intensity of being parents, like, all we want is to provide this healthy, safe place for our kids where they can feel secure and free to explore and grow and adventure.
Speaker 2:And it's a lot, yeah, and so I think yeah, yeah, and so I mean I think again, you know, kind of thinking about even this, like in some ways that's the. That's the theme, or one of the themes that we see oftentimes. But I think the theme, in a sense, where I feel like we're trying to give a sales pitch for vulnerability here, the theme always in terms of how do you, how do you change this and how does this become different is for couples to have that courage to be vulnerable with one another and in that, what begins to happen is you develop a new thing of feeling connected, a feeling heard, a feeling understood.
Speaker 2:And even if there are bumps along the road and you feel hurt again or you kind of regress to those old ways of interacting.
Speaker 2:you can work through it and that continues to convince you and your partner that hey we are close, we do love each other, we do care about one another, and that begins to be the theme that characterizes your relationship. Hey, thanks for joining us for the show today, and we would love for you to follow along with this by clicking that subscribe button. That way you know whenever we drop a new episode. So thanks again and we'll see you next week. Today's show was produced by Aaron and Steven Mitchell and brought to you by Couples Counseling for Parents. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.