No one likes having the default parent conversation because it typically ends up in both partners getting frustrated and going to their separate corners. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell MACP help you understand how to have the conversation differently and in a way that will actually change your couple relationship for the better.
No one likes having the default parent conversation because it typically ends up in both partners getting frustrated and going to their separate corners. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell MACP help you understand how to have the conversation differently and in a way that will actually change your couple relationship for the better.
Hello and welcome.
Speaker 2:This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell. Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell.
Speaker 1:I'm Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:And we are excited to talk about our topic for the show. But first we are really excited to tell you that we have written a book. We wrote a book, we wrote a book and this book is called Too Tired to Fight, and it is the 13 essential conflicts that parents must have to keep their relationship strong. So, yes, it's a book about conflict, but it's a book about how you can have conflict with your partner and also that conflict lead to connection for the two of you. So we are really excited. We have worked very hard on this book.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, so hard.
Speaker 2:I have a question, yes, what?
Speaker 1:So we wrote a book, but I'm seriously like, is that what you would say? That this book is about conflict? When you just said it is a book about conflict, I was like, oh, that's not what I would say at all.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think it's what I just said. It's a book about how conflict can lead to connection for you and your partner. So I think it's the basic premise. A lot of couples do feel just too tired to fight, but they also feel that in their parenting journey they are fighting a lot. There's a lot of conflict.
Speaker 1:Or there's no conflict or productive conflict.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and basically we've got tired, disconnected parenting partners Right and we're trying to present like hey, here are 13 very, very, very, very common conflicts and topics of discussion in parenting partner relationships that come up and oftentimes cause parenting partners to feel very disconnected, and we want to show you how you can turn that around.
Speaker 1:Do you want to know what I would have said.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:What I would say.
Speaker 2:What would you say?
Speaker 1:That I think that this book is about connecting to yourself and connecting to your partner, and we use these 13 common conflicts that derail that very, very often to sort of model how, even in the midst of these, you can still attune to yourself and find connection with your partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what I said. It may have been. I think that's exactly what I said.
Speaker 1:Nonetheless, we wrote a book. Nonetheless, we wrote a book.
Speaker 2:We wrote a book.
Speaker 2:We we do agree about what the book is about because we wrote it together, um, and we maybe have different ways of explaining it, which of course of course we would, um, but uh, you can find this book and you can pre-order this book, which, honestly I'm going to be real straightforward with everyone Pre-orders are massive and really, really, really important for our book being seen as kind of important, and booksellers then, based on pre-order, will promote your book even more.
Speaker 2:And so if you value us, if you value this podcast, if you value what we do on Instagram, if you have benefited in any way from anything that we've done, we would like, unashamedly, we want you to pre-order this book and support us and help us. We want it to be a bestseller. We want it to get on all those cool support us and help us. We want it to be a bestseller. We want it to get on all those cool, awesome lists, and the way that that happens is if you pre-order it. So if you go to our website, couplescounselingforparentscom, you can click on the book tab and pre-order it there. Or you can go to our Instagram. There's a little highlight circle that says book. You can click on that and order it there. Or you can go to our LinkedIn bio on our Instagram, click on that and there's a tab that says book and you can pre-order it there.
Speaker 1:You can also pre-order it anywhere. You've ever bought a book before, true. It's already there, you just have to Amazon Target Books A Million. Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 2:Barnes and Noble, all those places. So Hudson's.
Speaker 1:I think it is becoming more and more common for people to know that the pre-order time is a really important time for the authors. Um, but that is I, so I, I, more and more people have said that like oh, this is important for you, right? So I think people are knowing that we didn't know that before, though, but, um, yes, it is an important time for us, and it would mean so much to us.
Speaker 2:Yes, we thank you in advance. So Too Tired to Fight. It's out there, it's in the universe, and we're really proud of it.
Speaker 1:We think it's a really good book, yeah.
Speaker 2:It is a really good book actually, so you should read it. I think it will help your relationship in a very, very significant way, and we'll be talking a little bit more about the book. You'll probably see a little more on our Instagram and hear a little bit more about it here on the podcast, but it comes out for sale. July 9th is its official release date, but that won't be important to y'all, because you will have already pre-ordered the book and you won't have to buy it on July 9th because it'll just show up at your house, that's right.
Speaker 2:Okay, yes, so, but back to the show, thank you. Today we wanted to discuss something. So you know, default parent hot, hot, hot topic and oftentimes, default parent. There's a conversation, needed conversation, very important conversation that needs to happen, related to division of labor and some of the real practical, task-oriented things that take place in a parenting partner relationship. But today we wanted to focus more on what we might term like some of the emotional, relational, mental aspects of the default parent and how that might present itself between parenting partners and then what you can do to work through that. So we have a little case example here. We'll read it for you and then we will kind of jump into trying to help Stephanie and Ryan, steph and Rye. They're our characters for today. Can I call you Rye as?
Speaker 1:someone who goes by their full name. That's so true, you would think.
Speaker 2:I'm not a Steve. I'm not a Steve. I'm a Steven. That is true, but these aren't real people, so I don't think that they really care, do they?
Speaker 1:I don't know. Their names are written Stephanie and Ryan.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well, I'm not going to offend these figurative characters and I will use their full names Fantastic, Awesome, All right. So Stephanie and Ryan they have been together for six years and they have two kids and they both wanted to be parents. And before they had kids, they remember moments when they would both stay up and talk excitedly about what kind of family life they wanted and that they could have together. And these conversations helped them feel close and it gave them both a lot of confidence that they were ready to start their family. And now that they're four years into being parents, they have a four-year-old and a two-year-old.
Speaker 2:Stephanie has lost that feeling of confidence that she once had in Ryan and their ability to be the kind of family they imagined they would be in Ryan and their ability to be the kind of family they imagined they would be. And much of this feeling for Stephanie revolves around Ryan not engaging with her and thinking about how they want to parent, what kind of kids they're hoping to help develop, and being intentional about thinking through the kind of father he wants to be. And all of these are things Stephanie has committed hours and hours of her time to consider and things that she wakes up and intentionally thinks about every day. She's active in trying to read about parenting and child development. She's active in trying to take care of her own physical and mental health through exercise. She's even gone to some therapy. Stephanie sees her role as a mother and parent as one of the most important jobs and privileges she has, and she works to succeed at her job and to fulfill this privilege.
Speaker 2:And Stephanie's frustration with Ryan is that she does not see this same level of effort and commitment from him in relationship to being a father and parent. And it's not that Ryan is a bad dad or not loving towards the kids he's very loving but he does not engage Stephanie when she wants to discuss parenting or discuss if Ryan is taking the proper steps to care for his own physical and mental wellness. Stephanie knows Ryan cares and she doesn't want to get into a competition about who's working harder as a parent, but she does not feel that Ryan is sharing the burden of parenting in regards to being mindful about how they parent, the type of home environment they're creating and caring for himself so that he can be the best version of himself with the family. That's Steph and Ryan. You just called her Steph, oh, sorry. Sorry, Stephanie, I apologize. Yeah, what a hypocrite. Don't call me Steve, but I'll shorten your name.
Speaker 1:I think this is so common.
Speaker 2:Yes, even I was thinking about this kind of writing up this case example. So all these, all these case examples are just, you know, kind of a conglomeration of, um, a lot of the conversations that we have with couples, um yes, but they're never like based on yeah they're not.
Speaker 2:they're not like specific individual couples, uh stories. But as I was writing it up, I was even thinking I was like, oh, aaron and I have had this very conversation, and like not too long ago even, and I think our conversation is primarily centered around you wanting me to think about my own like self-care, my own like internal mental health, my own, you know, kind of those those sort of things in terms of, hey, maybe there's some things you should think about or consider, or you know, because it it feels like it's coming out, you know, in your interactions with us and the family in a way that maybe you don't want. So I feel like we've had those conversations for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh sure, I think. So this is. I think it's important to talk about this because I don't think this conversation ever goes away.
Speaker 2:So I mean, even as you're 16 years in. Uh, it has not gone away.
Speaker 1:Yes, but I think it it is. It is constantly evolving because, um, I think you and like me, me asking for you to do some work, and like, hey, I think you think you're being more patient than we feel like you're being, um, that, yes, certainly, but that has shifted. Like that was not the conversation we were having when we had newborns. Um that was not the conversation we were having you know like. I just think it's it's not like a thing that goes away yeah, and, and I think that there's a dynamic yeah, yeah, I think there's a dynamic.
Speaker 2:So with with stephanie and ryan, like there's this, there's this idea and so, like you know, some behind the scenes conversations that stephanie and ryan are having. So kind of they go like this Stephanie sees Ryan maybe feeling stressed out or being a little more short with the kids than you know maybe he would like. Or she sees Ryan come home and just kind of be tired and disengaged. You know Stephanie's also working coming home. They've both got full-time jobs. You know both work outside of the home. Both are coming back from work.
Speaker 1:Or even if they don't Sure yeah, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but you know their life, they do, stephanie and Ryan. They're both really. You know their careers are going great, they're doing well. Their careers are going great, they're doing well. But for Ryan, it's not that he's some terrible disinterested father or dad or angry, but it's just that he leaves thinking about how they want to raise their kids. So, like you know, are we gentle parents or are we, I don't know, some people do, I don't know what's the other, some other type? Are we some people do, like a love and logic parenting, or some people do? I don't know, it's not the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know all these different parenting styles that people you know like what, what kind of parenting we do, oh well, well, you know, stephanie will take care of that and tell me what to do or I think, or well, or even like we're good parents like, why do like, let's trust.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's trust our, let's trust our instincts.
Speaker 2:You know I, you know I had good experience like I know what to do, or even like developmentally, like. So our kids are four and two, like what might they be experiencing about the world, what might be useful for their emotional development or their physical development? You know, it's kind of like oh, you know Steph worries about all of that stuff. Why would you both worry about it? Yeah, I don't need to.
Speaker 1:You know Steph worries about all of that stuff? Why would you both worry about it?
Speaker 2:You know why? Yeah, I don't need to. You know she worries enough for both of us. Those kinds of things, I think, are the conversations that might happen. And I think for Stephanie she's saying like this stuff is important and I want us to be on the same page and see that you have a feeling that it's important too.
Speaker 1:So I think that it can go a lot of ways. I think it's definitely what you're talking about, but I think one of the primary ways that this becomes default parent territory is definitely some of the things you're saying. But also, like we have a four and a two year old, that means we need to start thinking about school. We need to start thinking about future. Things Like are we enrolling them in soccer? I saw up at the park in our neighborhood the other day.
Speaker 1:There were some kids that looked about their age like is that something we want to be doing, or should we be doing that?
Speaker 2:Right To get them connected to friends and a community and an experience of like.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it matters yes to your point, like yes, but I think where it feels lonely is when I mean I'm personal again, like me, trying to bring these things up. I mean, we've been talking about school for 13 years and it's like these things work themselves out. I, I can't, I like that is a terrible thing to say, like no, these things don't work themselves out, I work them out like they get worked out in your mind.
Speaker 1:because I have labored, I have spent the time, I have invested myself, I've projected 17 different scenarios about how each thing is going to impact them, and what I want is for one you to see that that matters. And two, to feel like all of the burden of this doesn't fall on me. That you care, that you're interested, that you're involved in this.
Speaker 2:And not like that I care from the standpoint of like okay, well, run me through all the information that you know and that you've done the research on. Yeah, I'm willing to talk. No, it's like or they're like. I trust you I know you're gonna make a great decision yeah like.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I love your trust. I don't want to be the only one making this decision you know another way.
Speaker 2:I see it is like, if you just think, just think about how will our family interact with our kids when they show the range of emotions that kids show. But like what, what are we going? What are we going to do? And I think that this is something that the default parent oftentimes has really drilled down on has read some books, has you, has listened to some podcasts like this, has kind of tried to understand, okay, what is the best way to interact with a kid to help their emotional development flourish. And oftentimes what that default parent also realizes is oh, if I'm going to help my kid flourish emotionally, I have to think about my own emotional world and maybe there's some things that might need to be different, because there's a direct connection between how a parent interacts with their emotional world and how they interact with their kid in their emotional world. And oftentimes the default parent is the one who's like okay, I've got all this, you know, I've done all this work to try and understand. And then they look to their other partner and their other and their partner says you know?
Speaker 2:Ryan says like you know, I'm just going to go on instinct here, I'm just going to, you know, like, this is what people did, this is how. This is what happened for me and it turned out fine. And and there's this idea of like, why are you so stressed out and worried about this? I don't need to do that. And what that does is it leaves Stephanie hanging, in a sense, because what she's wanting to do is say, like, I want to be a unified team who's really thought through the best practice here on how to engage with our kid in this emotional kind of development, and what that means is we need to engage ourselves with our own emotional development and think about how that's impacting them. And she's hearing from Ryan. You know Ryan saying either no, that's not important, or he might just say, okay, well, tell me what you want me to do. Like, what do we need to do?
Speaker 1:Yes. So I think yes, I mean I don't disagree with what you're saying, I think how I see this happening and then I think we should do the like. How it works? Yes, but I think it happens very often. I mean, we are intentionally and purposefully, and always will continue to say, default parent rather than mom, but very often this is the mom Right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it does matter. Sometimes it doesn't. It is not always the case, so I'm not going to say that it is, even though very often yeah, because it's not always the mom. But it is very often the person who has been pregnant with this little person.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I think that there's this experiential bodily change that does happen when you are pregnant, where everything about your life is forced Maybe not everything, but man almost every last thing in your life the way you sleep, how you work, how you walk, everything changes and that is forced upon you. That happens to you in a way, and then in a way that never happened to you like that happened, Right yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think that that continues to happen. So then you birth this person and you do think about like what, what do we want to do? How do I want this to go and I think that is a very common thing for it to happen where it's like well, I'm, I'm going to do this.
Speaker 2:I'm doing this, I'm going to do this as intentionally. Well, I think it heightens that idea of priority and privilege. So I think, in the sense of you've had this physiological experience where you've had to prioritize a kid in a really unique, important way, but then also, I think there's this great at least my understanding from you like this great profound sense of like a privilege that you feel like this kid is a priority and it is a privilege to like have this kid. And it's not that I didn't feel like our kids were a priority or privilege, it's just it. There was something priority or privilege, it's just there was something different about it.
Speaker 1:I think, because of that attachment, embodied experience. Yes, I think that's exactly what happens, and then the trend continues, because I do think there were different things asked of you in that time that were not asked of me. I think you felt a great deal of pressure. Well, I think everybody feels a great deal of pressure.
Speaker 2:But think that's the point.
Speaker 1:What we're not saying is it's one person, not the other, it's both of us. Steven felt privilege, I felt pressure. There was, there was a lot of things happening for everybody, but it is different. It's different and what we're, what we're saying is, at some point, what, what the what, the question, what the request, what the longing, frankly, is join me here in this priority and privilege everything about me has changed some of the things I'm still trying to figure out.
Speaker 1:If I like who I am, what this means, but also like evolve with me yeah, like, oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:Evolve with me. Yeah, change with me. Like I'm changing.
Speaker 1:Yes, like I'm, I am, I am changing, and I in ways that are uncomfortable, in ways that I do like, in ways I'm not sure about yet, um, and I think that is an overwhelming thing, and it feels like I'm the only one it's happening to yeah and it feels like, and I think to some extent it's because it it wasn't forced upon you right some extent, and I don't love that word forced, but it's kind of true. But also like choose this, like be in this, immerse yourself in this, like I'm immersed in this and when you don't, it feels like you won't Like.
Speaker 1:why are you resisting this?
Speaker 2:So two words that you're using that feel very impactful to me are evolve with me and immerse yourself in this with me, and I think that, in terms of like, what? So? What do you do? You know, how do you, how do you make this active change? How do you shift this dynamic when there's the you know change? How do you shift this dynamic when there's this default parent, non-default parent, and you're missing each other here? I think that those words are so important. It is, and for that non-default parent, what it is is, it is an understanding that that you have to evolve, you have to change you, erin, had to change in ways that were physical, that were emotional, that were spiritual, that were psychological, that was just Like cellular, yeah, like unbelievable, and yeah, I did it. But I think on that, I did, but not to that.
Speaker 2:There's a, there's a, there's a level of like depth to what you're talking about, and so I I feel like the evolution for for me at the very least is to know that that happened for you and that what you want happened for you, and that what you want is to feel that I'm evolving with you too and that I demonstrate that in some way. And I can demonstrate that by, like hey, guess what? I was doing some research on child development and I was just thinking through, you know we, our, our kids are, you know. You know 12, you know 10 and six. Like you know, this is kind of where they're where they're at in life. Like you know, are we. You know, like having that kind of conversation means I'm evolving with you.
Speaker 1:And immersing yourself as well.
Speaker 2:Right, right right.
Speaker 1:That's how it would work, that we would both be able to communicate about the things that are happening and that we would be together in that, even if it's like I don't feel that, but I think how it doesn't work is someone feeling like they're dragging the other person?
Speaker 2:You are coming to this preschool tour.
Speaker 1:We are doing this. And the other person like, yeah, you are coming to this preschool tour like we are doing this and the other person feeling dragged.
Speaker 2:There's nothing that um furthers that gap like pressure yeah, being controlled or forced, but I think that both partners feel controlled and forced a million, equally yes, like yes, a hundred percent so ryan feels controlled and forced because he's not doing enough to show that he cares, and Stephanie feels controlled and forced because she feels like it's left up to her.
Speaker 1:I also think that this is one of those like why it doesn't work is I think there's a real fear of like yes, we're parents and yes, we are immersing and evolving. I don't want that to be the only thing. No, we're also these other people and we have these other lives and I'm not just this and I think that there is some fear that if I go ahead and do what you're asking or what I feel like you're asking, I'm going to completely lose myself, which I guess I get, but think about it too.
Speaker 2:I think it also is the thing like your life has changed. You have become parents. Parenting is a really big part of your life. A really big part of your life. What, what the? The result of evolving and immersing yourself in this role also gives you another context and another avenue and another experience that you can have of connecting with your partner. When you, when you evolve and immerse and feel connected and like you're working together, that's like a whole new realm of growth and of relational goodness that you're able to have. And so I think, yes, there's that fear, but also there's that possibility that to respond in these ways can actually bring you and your partner together and give you more space and more time to do all that other stuff that you be, all those other parts of yourselves, but also to really enjoy and revel in this new context of parenting together.
Speaker 1:Sure. So I think that that's the one side of the fear. I think the other fear is this interpretation. So for the me's and the Stephanie's of like I, my fear is you don't want this as much as I do. You don't or you don't like it, or you don't love our kids like I do, or you don't love me like you used to and like that. This has changed.
Speaker 1:And so I think that there is some real fear of like, well, I'm not going to press too hard or I'm going to press all the way, but I think the balance is so it doesn't have to be extreme ends of the spectrum, but I think that that's what happens when this starts to emerge is people go to those extremes, and I think what you're saying is that someone engaging can create the space for the other person to feel like, oh, I can balance myself, like it doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1:We talk about nothing except preschool, or sure?
Speaker 2:sure, yeah, or high school, but but think about it. If you actually have evolved and immersed yourself, you don't have to keep talking about it. You have the conversations. You both feel like you're understood. You both feel like you have a pathway forward. You both feel like you have a pathway forward. Do you both feel like there's some resolution, like it actually frees space?
Speaker 1:That's exactly right. I think you've created choice and not reaction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because outside of doing that, what you're, what you are in, is a constant tug of war with one another, where there's nothing but tension, and all that does is exhaust you and make you want to stay away from each other because, or at least the conversation yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I mean, I think in this, like there's the reality. I think that there's two things so like on your end, the Stephanies and Aaron's, and like that idea of why this is so frustrating and why this is so painful and why it hurts, because you feel missed, because you feel like I or Ryan miss the depth of the evolution and change that you have been through, and there's a feeling of you're not with me anymore. You're not, you're not coming with me anymore in this change. And so when we're talking about school, that's what we're talking about, when we're talking about the emotional development of our kid, and you know, like wanting to, like, that's why this is such a hard conversation. It's because it taps into those feelings of, oh, my priorities have changed so much. I have had to evolve and immerse myself in this new role in a way that I could have never imagined and I feel like you're not here with me so I think that is the primary, the crux of it.
Speaker 1:But I also think there's this other thing of like, and the assumption is that's the only.
Speaker 2:Those are the only parts left of me you know, the only thing I love to talk about is preschool and soccer and whatever emotional development Like that's all there is to me now because I've evolved and immersed myself in this.
Speaker 1:that that's all there is. And like and that feels like a real assumption and honestly it's slimy, you know like? No, there's these.
Speaker 2:I'm forced to bring these up to you constantly because, you're not engaging and you not engaging with me doesn't allow you to be more. Yes, exactly Because it keeps you, I'm being dragged back into like I am constantly having to this.
Speaker 1:It won't resolve.
Speaker 2:It doesn't go away, so it just.
Speaker 1:I keep churning in it, which I think is that feeling of like I am drowning in childhood decisions here and you're just watching me and you're like oh, but you're doing great, you're doing so good, but you're so good at it Like no.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that again, where this conversation can get sideways a little bit too, is like there's this idea that the non-default parent says well, what I'm doing is important too, and I'm doing a lot, and it's like you know, yes, you are, everything you're doing is important and you're doing a lot too.
Speaker 1:Unnecessary and good.
Speaker 2:But also you're a parent and that's happened and that's happened, and you can't leave that role the default parent 100%. So you have to do the same thing, it doesn't matter what you're doing, because the role is a shared role. The role is something you're doing together and so you have to do it together, and I think that that is really important. And so you have to evolve and immerse together in an equitable way. And I think that that is really hard for that non-default partner to get and it's really hard for the non-default partner and the default partner to communicate about it, Because there's a lot of hurt and there's a lot of defensiveness and there's a lot of resentment and there's a lot of guardedness. But you have to evolve and immerse together.
Speaker 1:I think that's the how to fix what's broken. Part here is that it must be engaged.
Speaker 1:There's that saying that I'm pretty sure I picked up in one of the restaurants I worked at in college which is that um, um, or my graduate school education, but I actually don't think it was like engage, don't enrage, and it's just true. So I think a lot of times partners in in these types of conversations it's like, well, this is going to be a conflict. I'm just going to like, hey, I trust you, or the Stephanie's and the me's, because even in the thing it's like Stephanie doesn't want to talk about it.
Speaker 1:I don't want to get into the who's doing which and what, and I and you and like let's engage this as a we and assume that we are a team in this and like, hey, these are the five conversations or the things choices, because a lot of it is choices. I mean, even I was thinking about us, like our oldest is in sixth grade right now and it seems like we should not need to be talking about high school.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And Steven's, like I'm not going to talk about that because it shouldn't be a conversation.
Speaker 2:That's not how this works. I have totally not immersed myself. I was, I've been, I was thinking about this too, like I, so I'm convicted, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm called to account here. But because in a sense, I'm like I haven't immersed myself in this school decision, I haven't done any research, I haven't been like, okay, what are the options out there? Let's, let's like, but you have but.
Speaker 1:I think that this is one of. This is my point. My point was not to have you publicly say this.
Speaker 2:I just have thought about it.
Speaker 1:The point is is that? That doesn't make sense to you. You're like when I was growing up in sixth grade, I knew where I was going to high school.
Speaker 2:True.
Speaker 1:So that's how this is going to go and how this is going to go, and that may be for us how that goes, but the point is it doesn't have to go that way. There are lotteries where we live.
Speaker 2:You can choose a lot of things. Yeah, you can go wherever you want, pretty much 40 minutes across town. It's yours if you want it, and I just think it's different.
Speaker 1:It's not how it is. When you grew up, however, it was when you grew up, wherever it was, um and and the. The way for this conversation to go away, um is to engage it like okay, so what does this mean? These are the decisions at hand. These are the things we need to be talking about you do a little bit, I'll do a little bit, and then we can come together and then it's shared it's shared, yeah, and, and so I think that and even the five decisions, if stephanie and aaron are the only people making that list of the five decisions in hand.
Speaker 1:Um, that's not gonna go well either in our life. I don't do any sports. I show up, I'm very loud, way too loud. I'm working on that, but um your voice carries, it does and I don't even know what I'm talking about. I just get so excited. Um, but you, you handle all things. Sports emails, um, I heard at practice yesterday one of the dads was like have we gotten seven emails a day? Like, why are there so many emails, right?
Speaker 2:now.
Speaker 1:Like it can't be just one person even dictating the conversations about what's happening.
Speaker 2:Right stations about what's happening Right, and so you need to ask yourself the question so if you're the default parent, this idea of the evolution and the immersion that you don't feel like your partner has kind of matched you in, is that part of what some of your pain is, is that part of what some of the frustration is? And if so, it might be useful for you to reflect on that and be able to communicate, not in a blaming or critical way like, oh, I'm realizing why there's so much energy around this for me is because I feel like this in terms of the evolution and the immersion, and then I think but I think how that what that means is like this is what I think you have missed about the cost to me which doesn't mean.
Speaker 1:What I'm trying to share is my experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that I don't my experience. I don't feel like you've understood it or seen it.
Speaker 2:And then I think, if you're the non-default parent, I think the questions you have to ask yourself is how have I missed the evolution that has taken place for my partner, myself, in my role as a parent, in an equitable, 100% kind of way? Like what can I do? And I want to have that conversation with my partner and say I feel like this is how I've missed that immersion. This is what I'm thinking, this is how I'm seeing that. What immersion might look like? Does that fit for you? This is how I'm seeing that. What immersion might look like. Does that, does that fit for you? With that, you know, does that feel like me engaging in a way that you've missed? Like you have to have that, that kind of conversation.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then I think the layer beneath all of that is the like how did we come to be here, like so, if you have been resistant to that evolution and that immersion, rather than being like I'm such a terrible person or they're such a terrible?
Speaker 2:partner Like how?
Speaker 1:how come Like? What are the stories that? Have formed that Like how did that come to be and what are the fears, what are the desires? So often when we are having this conversation with couples, that's where that connection comes back and understanding, like I am afraid this feels like a lot. I'm overwhelmed most of the time and, like me too, like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Or I don't even know how to, I don't even know what to do. I practically I just don't know what to do, those those kinds of things, or.
Speaker 1:I'm afraid I'm going to get it wrong. So, yeah, I do leave it up to you, and I can acknowledge that that's freeing for people to hear. So it's true, I'm not crazy. I haven't been making this up. No, you haven't. I'm nervous. I don't want those Me either, but that isn't fair. Just because I'm scared yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, the house.
Speaker 1:They're very important.
Speaker 2:So, evolution and immersion, how can those two principles, those two concepts, guide you and your partner into a different kind of interaction around this very, very, very important topic? Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.