One of the most talked about conflicts we see with couples is how to balance the roles and responsibilities between a partner that works full-time and a partner that stays at home full-time. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP offer a solution to this conflict.
One of the most talked about conflicts we see with couples is how to balance the roles and responsibilities between a partner that works full-time and a partner that stays at home full-time. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP offer a solution to this conflict.
Hello and welcome, Mrs. Couples Counseling for Parents. They show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Hiya parents, Our Dad, Dr Steven Mitchell, and our Mom, Erin Mitchell. Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Steven Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell and on today's show we want to discuss I think maybe one of the top nine.
Speaker 2:You thought I was going to say ten, it was going to be different. Oh, you got it.
Speaker 1:You thought I was going to say ten Top nine parenting partner conflicts that we hear about.
Speaker 2:I think it is within one of the worlds of the top nine. I don't think it is the topic, but that's nuanced.
Speaker 1:It is very nuanced, very nuanced. So, keeping that nuance in mind, what is the conflict? Well, it goes something like this there's one partner that works full time outside of the home, or maybe in the home, but they have a full time job, and the other partner is a stay at home parent. Here's a scenario so Sean and Victoria. Sean's the one who works full time outside the home, victoria is the stay at home parent, and they have three kids all under the age of ten, and Victoria, she stays at home and what this means is that she handles all the kid-related decisions and the household needs and all the stuff that comes with staying at home, and she kind of does it 24-7.
Speaker 1:And Sean, you know he's not an absent, lazy or uninvolved dad or husband. He works hard and when he's home he pitches in and helps, and it's this mentality that is enough to send Victoria into orbit and it also feels kind of confusing for her. So Sean's gone all day at work doing a lot for the family. She appreciates what he does, and yet she feels like she is working to and she does a lot for the family, but there's this disconnect where it's just Sean's going to come in and pitch in and help her with her job, but it's not his job and it just seems like there's a big inequity there and Victoria doesn't feel like she's allowed to be upset about that.
Speaker 1:She kind of brings it up and then Sean gets defensive and says what are you saying? That I don't do anything, that I'm not working hard, that I'm not? And then Victoria says well, what are you saying? That I'm not doing anything, that I'm not working hard, that I have it easy here at home and I don't know the way that ugby man helps in issues such as work发展, photo? Whatever it is, a conflict like this. It's probably one of your top nine conflicts, if I'm thinking about it. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Or within the top nine. Within a category Within one of the categories of the real top nine.
Speaker 1:Okay, but so we hear about this a lot, okay, right.
Speaker 2:So said some hot button issues. One of them was she kind of does this 24 seven and I thought so she does it 24 seven.
Speaker 1:I retract, kind of.
Speaker 2:No, but I think that's the thing.
Speaker 1:I'm deleting, I'm touching the delete button right now on the script.
Speaker 2:He's not there, isn't. He's making that up, it just feels like. And then the confusion part. These feel connected to me, so we're getting kind of fuzzy here and our own dynamic, but I think the reality is it's fuzzy about this dynamic because I think the question at hand is it's confusing for both of them. I mean, we talked to this couple.
Speaker 1:Sean does sound confused, I agree.
Speaker 2:Sean is confused. Sean is like what is? My role, and typically I mean, I could tell you five things Sean says every time we talk to Sean.
Speaker 1:Just give us two.
Speaker 2:Well, when I do try to step in and do more, I do it wrong. When I do try to do more, I don't know what I'm talking about or it comes, like you know, she swiftly comes behind me and does it better or it's.
Speaker 1:You're not here so you don't get an opinion, or you. You know those kinds of things Correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, and the well, I'm gonna say the other side and then I'm gonna say the part. But Victoria, she is confused because it's like, well, maybe this is what I'm supposed to be doing and maybe this is what I signed up for, maybe I'm not allowed to be upset because, I mean, they're not wrong, sean is bringing in all the dollars that pays for our life and pays for these choices I'm making, and whatever.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's confusing. I think also, if I'm really being honest, the Victoria's we know and work with typically are also doing 17 other things, not just kid related. Very often they also feel like they're supposed to be somehow generating some kind of income and have a side hustle themselves. And I, like you know like very rarely is Victoria like lunching with her friends and Well, that's the misconception, I think.
Speaker 2:And maybe she has looked at it that staying at but that's like how she spends her day, yeah or even if she wasn't, even if she didn't have a side hustle, even if she wasn't doing anything.
Speaker 1:There is this perception that if you're a stay at home parent, you've got it easy.
Speaker 2:Who's perception is that?
Speaker 1:But it's out there. I have no like. I hear about it. I you know you get these comments for people who's like well, my partner's just at home watching TV and sitting on the couch and going to that's a parent genius. Well, at the stay at home parent, you know our kids are in school, and so what are they doing all this time? Well, you know our kids are in school Like they're not doing anything, like you know there's I mean, you hear it, we've seen it.
Speaker 2:Like we have heard and seen it. I do also think, though, that there is a growing awareness of how absolutely overwhelmingly stressful being a stay at home parent can be.
Speaker 1:What was that? One step on breastfeeding you when you.
Speaker 2:If they got paid minimum wage they'd make $106,000 or something every year.
Speaker 1:So if In the first year If a you know parent, but I don't even think it's just that.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think you could get yes.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of things, anyway, just like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think there's also the research that talks about a stay at home parent is within. Again, I can't remember the numbers here either, but above 90% of the most stressful jobs in the world.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:In terms of like nervous system activation stress all day and the constancy and the.
Speaker 1:What you're managing, what you're having to do. Yes, yes, yes. So this is the argument.
Speaker 2:All I'm saying is, yes, that narrative exists, that like it's not that hard and like I'd love to get to do it because I love our kids and it seems like it's such a treat and you shouldn't have such a bad attitude about it. Like well, I can genuinely enjoy my kids and think it is really hard to be on 100% of the day.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, without a doubt.
Speaker 2:So those things can coexist. But I also do think there is a growing movement and a growing awareness although maybe quite hasn't hit anybody outside of the stay at home mom world that there is recognition of just how taxing and consuming and joyful I mean like let's not just pretend that being a stay at home parents horrible, I don't mean it like that at all.
Speaker 1:No, you're just, it's just. It's hard to do any job 24 hours a day, every day of the week, no matter how much you love it.
Speaker 1:Yes, Like I think that that's who else does that? Right? That is all we are talking about here, and so if we're trying to say, hey, this is a conflict, we would love to give you what we would call a reframe, a new way to tell the story, a new way to think about this conflict, if you and your partner find yourself in it and I do think that it can be I think it's a fairly simple perspective that, if both partners are willing to commit to it, I think it could really help.
Speaker 2:Can't wait.
Speaker 1:So, and I think that there's a couple of principles to this framework, and the first is to think about the job. And when we say job, like again, I'm in no way trying to imply that like having kids is just this taxing, awful, terrible thing I might it might be better to say it's a responsibility, because it's a responsibility I love and I'm grateful for, and I think you love and you're grateful for as well. So job doesn't mean burden.
Speaker 1:I guess, is what I'm trying to, but I think the first thing is parenting as a job is something that is 24 seven for both of you. That's the first thing that I remember. This is a shift in perspective.
Speaker 2:This isn't the way it is. Okay, got it. This isn't the way it is.
Speaker 1:Steven saw my oh man, she almost poked both my eyes out, like, literally like her hand was raised two fingers. She was about to just jab, just bam, right there. No, this is the change in perspective. This is the different story we're saying. You need to tell.
Speaker 2:Understood.
Speaker 1:That. That is how you look at your responsibility as a parent. It is every hour of the day, every day of the week, always. What does that sound like, erin's? Like you don't do that. That's not true. I struggle too, I mean, but I try to.
Speaker 2:I struggle too, I mean part of me is like ooh, that feels like a lot for everybody and I mean I'm ready to hear the next steps. I don't. I have. I feel like there's got to be asterisks to that, because okay.
Speaker 1:So then, what about for?
Speaker 2:the partner who is working outside of the home also Right.
Speaker 1:So this is the so, yes, so. So, with that, with that perspective in mind, I think and I think that's where it's complicated.
Speaker 2:I mean we, you know, you have, we literally have people reach out like but my partner, you know, she's a brain surgeon she's literally not able to field calls from the school during the day.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, but, but, but. But I think that this is the fix for that. So, if we think about parenting kind of globally as that, then I do think that there are. There are different roles and responsibilities for someone who is a full time out of the home worker and someone who stays at home as a parent, and it can simply be this. Think about it this way you as a full time worker, when you're gone at work, doing your job for however many hours, you do it eight hours, nine hours, seven hours, 10 hours your partner, your stay at home partner, is at home doing their job for eight hours, nine hours, 10 hours, however long it is, you're both working. You're both working. And so, yes, as a brain surgeon, your job is not to field calls from the school in your when you're gone.
Speaker 1:As a stay at home parent, your job is because that's your job. And then when you reunite at the end of your work day, at the end of your first full time job, and come back together, you're coming back together to clock in for your second full time job, which is parenting together.
Speaker 2:I think what's important. Sorry, were you not?
Speaker 1:finished Well, and then with that perspective comes different roles and responsibilities.
Speaker 2:And different abilities and energy levels between couples. I mean because that is not going to look the same for us, as it does for our neighbor, as it does for our best friend, as it does for our whoever like. It's going to be different. But the point is is figuring out what that is for you. I'm thinking back our first six and a half years with kids. I was a stay at home parent and you worked full time and there was no sweeter.
Speaker 1:And I acted like a Sean. Sometimes, yeah, I feel like I had to. I feel like I acted like a Sean, more than I would have liked, I think.
Speaker 2:More than a Stephen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to be a Stephen, not a Sean. Good news. I mean, if your name's Sean, that's fine, that's a good name. It's not that I don't want your name, it means I don't want to be the.
Speaker 2:Sean in this story we digress again.
Speaker 1:I just want to be the Stephen in my own story. That's deep, Did you like I?
Speaker 2:did that, I lost.
Speaker 1:Doesn't that feel more impactful and effective?
Speaker 2:I don't know what we're talking about my own story.
Speaker 1:Okay, I don't know what we're talking about. You said that there's different, different couples, different partners are going to. That's not what I was saying.
Speaker 2:I was saying that I stayed at home and when you would get home from work. It was both like the most anticipated you know 20 minutes of my day like he'll be home in 20,. He'll be home in 15, he'll be home in 10,. He'll be home in five. He's home. And then the most frustrating 20 minutes after you walked in the door.
Speaker 1:And I think what's so interesting.
Speaker 2:Do you think?
Speaker 1:that's also true for you, oh, absolutely. Because, this is the disconnect and this is where things get messed up, and this is why I think this change in perspective can help, because the parent the no wait, wait. Can you wait just a second?
Speaker 2:No for the last four and a half years I have been a working parent and that hasn't changed. So I think to some extent. Yes, of course, this conversation is drastically different, and you still being like man.
Speaker 1:He's almost done. Can't wait for the work to be done.
Speaker 2:Can't wait for the work to be done, can't wait, can't wait, can't wait. And then that transition is tough even still.
Speaker 1:So I think, tell me if you think this is the class we are talking about staying home parents, but I just want to say some of this doesn't really matter no-transcript. I think that what there's a mindset that happens for that full time parent outside the home is they get off working and they're like whoo, all right, I just clocked out going home, gonna just take, you know, like I've been working really hard, like I need some downtime, and they With the idea.
Speaker 2:I mean, we've talked to Sean's in this scenario and you have been this person too. The idea but I'm a.
Speaker 1:Steven, now she didn't, you should see her.
Speaker 2:She's getting less and less funny. Let's all be honest, she's got the fingers up.
Speaker 1:I don't know why you're coming up with that, that's so weird.
Speaker 2:I, yeah, I mean, when you do this it takes.
Speaker 1:So much time you exhaust me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not joking.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we were saying so-.
Speaker 2:We weren't saying anything. I was saying something.
Speaker 1:Sean, he's coming home thinking whoo, oh, they're gonna take the time I just need like a quick 20. Let me like do a quick run, or let me just like go lay and change my clothes, checking in, and I am checking in To pitch in and help, I mean really. I mean that's sort of the mentality, whereas there's no-.
Speaker 2:That is not always the mentality so you can go take your break, so you can.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's painting the uglier picture, but the but it is one that happens.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I'm sure if you're listening you're like yeah.
Speaker 1:So, and there's not this idea that Victoria might be feeling the same way and that that is just as legitimate for her to be like. I'm about to clock out because Sean's coming home and I've just wanted. I mean, they're thinking the same thing, but in our culture, in our world, in our society and oftentimes in this conflict, there's an inequity in who gets to do that, and it's both of them get to do it. Both of them get to feel that way. But I think what they both, what you both, have to realize, is that you are ultimately the culprit. You're clocking into the next phase of your work day together.
Speaker 1:And this is what I think is different in terms of roles, of responsibility, and in this job there is equity in division of labor and in the level of emotional and mental investment that is given to the role. And that's for Sean, because I think Victoria gets that, because Victoria is like I'm living it mental load, I'm doing it like this is a reality that she knows.
Speaker 2:I think there are some things Victoria knows but, having been Victoria, the way that frustration and hurt that Sean doesn't know that comes out is by dismissing and criticizing and saying, oh, you wanna break now.
Speaker 1:Must have been so hard having that work lunch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yes, victoria feels that. I think generally it doesn't always come out that way.
Speaker 1:Which is so interesting, it's the Victoria says oh, was it work lunch hard? Was your golf outing, your networking outing tough? And it's the same kind of languaging that Sean might have when he's like oh, was it tough for you just to hang out here at the house while the kids were gone.
Speaker 2:Well, you know like and that's so kind of but so often this happens before kids go to school.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's this is so condescending to everybody.
Speaker 2:I think condescension is how hurt gets expressed, unfortunately a lot of the time, because that comment is immediately, I mean I dismissed or enraging, but behind it is you don't see me Both ways. But I think the practical piece here and this is I think I think us having had the experience of that transition being unbelievably difficult at best, painful and very relationally destructive at worst, I mean that can be like rest of the night Ruanar, and when those night Ruanar stack up, it's like- what happens every day.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, and so what you're talking about is you're just in a constant loop of like this is awful.
Speaker 2:You don't get me. Oh, you still don't get me. Oh, happy Thursday, you don't get me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I'm gonna hear it from you again when I get. I can't wait, can't wait to get home. I know exactly what's coming.
Speaker 2:But the difference is. At least for me it felt like a surprise every single day, like oh no, he's coming he's coming.
Speaker 1:he's coming, it's gonna be better.
Speaker 2:Nope every day until we finally did have this conversation. But I think my point is-.
Speaker 1:And I think it's this conversation, this reality that look-.
Speaker 2:This is really hard for everybody we have different roles in responsibility.
Speaker 1:When we're both at our daytime full-time work, and then when we come home together to be parents, our roles and our responsibilities shift into a place of equity, and then what you have to do is you have to navigate that and by equity we don't mean 50-50.
Speaker 2:By equity it's like-.
Speaker 1:You gotta, yeah, I mean it's 100, 100. I mean like it's like, okay, you know, because you know you got a kid who stays up all night, or you got a kid who's sick and throwing up, or you got like I mean, you just-.
Speaker 2:Or you just have children who need to be fed and baked and rescued, or somebody's breastfeeding and they're working.
Speaker 1:I mean they're and so, again, this is not about like, and so these are the three things you need to do. This is about. This is the mentality, mindset, perspective that we feel it's really important that you have Okay, but so that you can navigate it.
Speaker 2:For the three things to do. I think that's the first thing to do is talk about perspective. Yes, yes. And very open-mindedly say what's this like for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is the transition home. The most stressful time of the day? Is it when I leave for work? Is it halfway? Through the day when I check in.
Speaker 1:Or do you view what I'm doing as full-time work? Do you view that my job is just like your job? Do you view like-.
Speaker 2:And, honestly, either Sean or Victoria could ask that question, exactly because they might be like are you kidding me?
Speaker 1:my job as a stay-at-home parent is like 18 times harder than your job.
Speaker 2:But I think the important piece there is to be honest. I think you're right that that question could be asked, but I think if you're saying no, if either of you hears your own self saying no one like I can't say that out loud. I can almost guarantee you that there are some layers of hurt there, because we dismiss and minimize what our partner is doing, when we feel like we are being dismissed and minimized. So there's some work to be done there, because mostly when we have this conversation with couples and when we had it ourselves, but when we do this work because we have this conversation all over the top.
Speaker 1:It's one of the top nine. This is the top nine conflicts that we deal with.
Speaker 2:The layers, when you start getting into that pain and the couple starts to feel each other's hurt. They are absolutely willing to acknowledge the effort their partner is putting in.
Speaker 1:I think reasonable people who aren't triggered resentful and full of bitterness can be like no, oh my gosh, those are such mean words who aren't triggered hurt, devastated, unseen.
Speaker 2:I don't mean, it mean you mean bitter and resentful in the best way.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, that's exactly what happens. We've been bitter and resentful. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just mean like that's what happens when these things aren't resolved and you're not able to talk about them.
Speaker 2:Again. But the person who is bitter and resentful is a person who is hurt, feels unseen and dismissed.
Speaker 1:I'm not refuting that point, I know. But what we're?
Speaker 2:trying to do is say the layer below.
Speaker 1:Right, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:When that person feels seen and validated and known in their experience, they are more than willing to do the same for their partner.
Speaker 2:So if you hear your answer being like no, I honestly don't feel that it's probably time to do before you say that out loud, it's probably time to do some reflection Like am I feeling dismissed, unseen, invalidated, those types of things, and how, and like where is that hurting and where is that coming from and in what areas and in what ways, and lead with that Like I'm feeling this way, I bet you're feeling that way, because very rarely is just one partner in a dynamic feeling that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you have to, like, navigate the perspective and those things, and then practically you do have to figure out what's going to be equitable for y'all Like, and that is what's going to be. That's going to look different for every couple, but you do. I think you need to be real specific and kind of lay it out. It's just like writing a job description.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Every job description has very specific task and there's ways to evaluate that task and there's ways to measure whether it's being, you know, mad or not, like I can tell you like for us one of the things that began to work.
Speaker 2:So working out is a very important mental health and physical health, but definitely mental health thing for you, stephen, and when we had kids it was even our well, we still have kids when our kids were babies is what I'm thinking. It was even more so like you had to and so like it became, and why this wasn't like top of mind, it's hard to know, but it took us a month maybe even years to be like. Oh, when you get home, take them, put them in the jogging stroller and go for a ride.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're going to do that, then this is how that's going to go down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love you having hobbies when they include yeah, but that was a fair incident. I got a break, you got your break, like we all were doing. It wasn't what either of us wanted completely.
Speaker 1:I was happy to do it. I just wanted to work out, and so that was a great way for it to. I mean, and that's what you got to navigate Like some people are like that's not a break. It felt great to me.
Speaker 2:I'm back home, setting our house right getting dinner prepared.
Speaker 1:I didn't kick, yeah, but I'm doing it on my own, without noise, without mess, without, the yeah, so whatever.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying that was it. That is a practical example, and that's what we're talking about having a practical yes. This is what this would mean, and on this night it can't look like that. So how can it look?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and on that night yeah. Yeah, and so we really do like if you can shift your perspective of what it means to be a full-time worker outside of the home, what it means to be a stay-at-home worker, parent at home and recognize that you are. When you're coming back together, you are clocking into a different job that has different roles and different responsibilities, and the key word in that is and they're equitable.
Speaker 2:And you define what what equitable is, but that I just want to say sorry, I'm going to finish this.
Speaker 1:Well, I just think that that can remove so much of this tension and it will move from like one of the top nine conflicts that you have as parenting partners to maybe maybe one of the top 20. What I was going to say is that you?
Speaker 2:that has been very helpful. Language for you is the clocking in Sure, that makes sense to you, but that might not yeah. For me it's. We are both going to mutually engage our family.
Speaker 1:I like that too.
Speaker 2:Yes, clocking in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that doesn't resonate for me.
Speaker 2:Wonderful Right, whatever resonates for you and it doesn't have to be one of those, but yeah, yeah, I just think find the language, find your experience, find yourself in it and offer that rather than criticism.
Speaker 1:Hey, thanks for listening to the show today and if you want to make sure that you don't miss when we drop new episodes, click that follow button. If you're wondering where you can find more great content from Couples Counseling for Parents, you can go to our website at couplescounselingforparentscom or follow us on Instagram at couplescounselingforparents. Today's show was produced by Aaron and Steven Mitchell. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.