Who says setting boundaries with in-laws and extended family has to be a negative experience? Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP tell you how boundary setting can foster healthier interactions within your couple relationship and your relationship with extended family.
Who says setting boundaries with in-laws and extended family has to be a negative experience? Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP tell you how boundary setting can foster healthier interactions within your couple relationship and your relationship with extended family.
Hello and welcome, Mrs. Couples Counseling for Parents. They show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Hiya parents, Our Dad, Dr Steven Mitchell, and our Mom, Erin Mitchell. Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Steven Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell and I wanted to talk about a topic today that we've talked about before, but it's been a little while and I feel like I've been thinking about it because I feel like it's a topic that's come up with some of the couples that we've been talking to.
Speaker 2:It is something that is always coming up.
Speaker 1:Right. So, and it's around this idea of in-laws and boundaries, and everyone just laid down and went to sleep, right? Now Quick nap Just Quick 15. Okay, or everyone's like energy Super activated yeah everyone is just like angry, cortisol filled the body, fuming.
Speaker 2:No one's actually sleeping at all. But I think what? I think the reason to have this conversation in a context like this, the reason we have this conversation, the reason we encourage couples to be actively talking about this, is so that it can be a more neutral conversation, because what yeah?
Speaker 1:Go ahead so your blood doesn't boil, you don't feel like you need to take a quick 15. Quick 15. Back in 15? That's right.
Speaker 2:Yes, because it doesn't have to be a negative thing. Saying like, hey, I'd like to talk about some boundaries for this upcoming birthday party Doesn't have to mean your partner says that in all you hear is your years or whatever of it. I can't stand your parents or your brother's coming. He's the worst. And it's like you know really personal, deep accusatory stuff. And that's what happens. It's like, oh great, what do you need? It gets contentious and so fast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think one of the things to note like we're not talking here like terrible relationships. I think we're simply talking like Now couple.
Speaker 2:You mean like a terrible relationship with faith, with in-laws.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're kind of saying in-laws, but you just use the example of, like you know, your brother's coming into town, you know, like I think it can be extended to family, just in general, and I think that why this is such an important conversation is that To be clear, a brother is an in-law. They are.
Speaker 2:A brother in-law, a sister in-law.
Speaker 1:That's so true, sweet.
Speaker 2:This is another one of those moments where I wish we had sound effects, where it's like you're. No.
Speaker 1:I think, no, I think I. You know what I think of in-laws. I think of like Parents. Yeah, mother-in-law father-in-law, but you're right, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, you know what?
Speaker 2:It's been a long day Feeling a little tired, thank you, but we do also extend to this family, because you don't really say that's my uncle-in-law yeah, right, right, right, no, you're right, you're right. Well, I know.
Speaker 1:It's totally. I hope that entertained everyone. I hope everyone got a good laugh about that little oversight in my brain. Go ahead, yeah. So I think what I was saying is we're not necessarily talking about negative, like unhealthy relationships, like I don't even like my extended family, I mean, we're talking like in normal relationship healthy like in normal, like healthy relationship, like two partners come into a relationship and they bring their families and what that means is we all have to relate to one another's family and that requires skills, because that's not always the easiest thing.
Speaker 2:It does require some skill. I think it also just requires some communication because, I think, to your point. In the best of circumstances, there's still some communication that has to go into interacting with each other's family, because they're new. It's a new relationship, no matter how long you all have been around. There's a learning curve and there's a oh, this is how your family does birthdays Right right. All right, Like that's not how we did birthdays.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And just coming to understand that, and that happens through communication, and that doesn't always go well, because it can feel like I want to put up boundaries, which means I want your family to stay away, which is not what that's supposed to mean. It's trying to figure out the best way that we can interact with this extended family in a way that feels safe and authentic to us.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's sort of that like who's the we here? How do we want to approach this? How are we planning to go into this?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I think birthdays are a great example.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I kept saying that.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, because it's just the, it's the little kind of normal although birthdays not every day every day kind of interactions Like. So you know you're. You're sitting there getting ready to play in your three-year-old's birthday party. Your partner's mother-in-law is super excited, just pumped, and they have some ideas about how they want to celebrate their grandkids three-year-old birthday party.
Speaker 2:And they think you're calling on real life experience right now. I don't.
Speaker 1:Maybe you think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this feels like us.
Speaker 1:So if we say Aaron's mom has some real clear ideas about how she wants to celebrate our three-year-old's birthday party, and that can feel to Steven like she's encroaching on how we want to celebrate Birthday, said birthday.
Speaker 2:And here is the perfect example. So already the way Steven said that I'm like my mom's, not trying to control the party. You're just feeling like my mom wants to be involved and that makes you feel controlled.
Speaker 1:She's just like what's the?
Speaker 2:plan that's not her controlling. You just are come from a family who didn't celebrate with extended family.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's just like I just want us to have our own thing and not do exactly what your family would do.
Speaker 2:My family's not trying to push anything on you. They're just trying to say, can we come? Yeah, and you're saying, oh, and that is how it could get sideways fast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, around something that's supposed to be really fun, which is your kid's birthday, and some really normal desires from both people. It makes a lot of sense for your mom to want to celebrate her grand kid and have a lot of fun and enjoy that, and it would make sense for us to want to do that in a way that fits sort of our family.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the key. So us like who's the? We hear us. Not Steven versus me and my family, not me and my family versus Steven. But like so how do we want it to look? I really want my family to be involved.
Speaker 1:That was a big part of it Always had a family birthday party going up and you're like that's weird we never did, but so this is what we're talking about, because I think that this is where this conversation can go wrong.
Speaker 2:The second time because we already had one time this is another place. The conversation couldn't go wrong.
Speaker 1:Sure sure. What was the other time that we just, the way you brought it up, like your mom is?
Speaker 2:trying to control and I'm like she's not trying to control. She asked what time dinner is.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now the second time.
Speaker 2:Thanks for paying attention, sorry, sorry.
Speaker 1:It's been a long day or something. I'm a little.
Speaker 2:I think you're getting sick.
Speaker 1:You think so? Yes, where I think that this conversation can go wrong. The second time is so Aaron and I, we have had different experiences around family birthdays. So, for example, my family the way they celebrated birthdays was I don't know what would you say we didn't really celebrate birthdays or it was much more an insular, like our family kind of thing. We didn't have people over, we didn't have extended family over.
Speaker 2:We didn't live near family, which I think impacts that.
Speaker 1:Right, but I mean, we didn't necessarily live near your family and people would fly in for it, so we didn't do that, we just kept it our family. And there were some things I actually liked about that. I'm a little bit more of an introverted person, so I kind of like a little smaller group anyway. And so our birthdays that was our birthday celebration and that's kind of how I envisioned birthday celebrations would be in my family, because that's what I knew.
Speaker 2:Fair to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you celebrated birthdays in your family. Go ahead, we've got 15 minutes for you to describe it now.
Speaker 2:If it won't take long. I don't think we had a friend party and we had a family party, so we always got to, I mean, I think, always, even like pretty little kid we got to invite a few friends to do something of our choosing. And then my brother and I are born two weeks apart, so usually we would have those combined. So, like with all the uncles, all the cousins, we would have a dinner and cake.
Speaker 1:Right, and that is your expectation about how we would celebrate birthdays, and by curiosity, like also your mom's expectation, right, so from your mom's kind of perspective, so when are we having the family party? When are we having the friend party? That kind of thing.
Speaker 2:And I think I can't tell if I'm just trying to defend my mom or if I'm speaking largely to like a healthy sort of in-law extended family situation. My mom, I feel like, tried to tread very lightly around things like this. Hey, what's the plan?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but if there is one, I'd sure like to know so I could book a ticket and play in for it, but I think that was sometimes due to unclear communication on our part, both because we hadn't talked about it yet. Like I don't know, we haven't done that and I think that would really frustrate you. Like that would start to feel like we're supposed to have a plan and we're supposed to know and we're supposed to be communicating and we don't know. Like this is not a big deal.
Speaker 1:And I think what also happened is it began to just feel like a lot Like to me. Am I sort of very simple, this sort of mindset, like all of that stuff? It's like, do we really need to do all that? Like, isn't that excessive? And again, I'm just speaking from my own experience. But I think where the conversation goes wrong is Again, For the 18th time. This is where the conversation goes wrong. Is we start interpreting these conversations in light of, well, my way of doing it is right and your way of doing it is excessive and wrong or too much. Or you might look at my way and be like well, your way is like not fun and like kind of boring and not celebratory. Would that be fair? Yes, yes. And where couples get stuck in conversations about in-laws, about boundaries, is, I think, in that place where they feel like, look, the way I've done it is the right way, and you begin to like try to pull your partner over to doing things how you want it. I definitely think that's a component.
Speaker 2:I do think there's another piece, and I think to our experience. I think that this applies to couples we worked with as well, though I think you would have been happy to have planned a party, but to feel like it was because that's what my family needed is gonna make you dig your heels in hard and fast, like you know I'm not having some party so your family can feel like they got what they needed, so they were a part of our kid Like this is our kid, I'm not doing this for them, and so it was like a there could be sometimes a no posture.
Speaker 2:Same for me, like rather than choosing like well, what do we want? Being like I'm not gonna not celebrate, I'm not gonna, you know, whatever. Be, I don't really I don't.
Speaker 1:This was never really a conversation, but like I don't want to mutually feel controlled, so I also dig in hard about like no, we're doing it this way, we're gonna, you know, have the two parties the fear of control, because Stephen and I have never intentionally tried to control the narrative.
Speaker 2:But that fear of like don't make this go a certain way, or I'm not gonna do that because that's what's expected of me. We're both pretty contrary people.
Speaker 1:Yes. And very strong will you more than me?
Speaker 2:And if we think or feel or get that sense that someone is has an expectation of us A true contrarian. I tried to keep going.
Speaker 1:I like that one, though. A true contrarian, that's a word right.
Speaker 2:I don't, is your brother, really my brother-in-law.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, but yes, I think there can be that sort of Fear of control.
Speaker 2:Yes, that I don't want to have to do what your family expects of us. I want to get to choose this. So you start saying no to things or you start giving people labels just out of that fear, and I think it's really hard to make good us, we decisions from a place of fear. So, like, what are we actually talking about here? What we're talking about is how do we want to celebrate our three? How?
Speaker 1:old did you say you were Our three-year-old, our three-year-old's birth, our kids, not three. This was a long time ago.
Speaker 2:You just made this child up. I feel that. But I think to sort of come back down and then how should we communicate that to our families? Do we want-.
Speaker 1:Yes, I like that. I like that. There's that idea of how can we join our mutual experiences to create something that we want as a family, and then how can we communicate that to our families as a unit, as a team, not like, well, we have to do this because you need this or we have to do this because I need this.
Speaker 2:To be honest, I think a lot of conflict comes a lot of in-law family dynamic conflict. Extended family conflict comes from unclear communication on both sides.
Speaker 1:Between partners about expectations.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I do think it often starts here and it's fuzzy here and so it's really fuzzy going out and I think of my parents, I think of your siblings, who have been sincerely perfect intentions about trying to understand a decision, or what the plan is or whatever, and because, we don't know our communication's really bad outside and so things feel like there's a lot of noise all over because there is.
Speaker 2:So I think clear, good, healthy communication here and then going out I think alleviates a lot of anxiety all the way around and, I think, the way you can have.
Speaker 1:So I think it's funny you mentioned birthdays. I think one of the reasons I was thinking about this is I know we're in September, but like these are the times, like we're not too far off from holidays happening, thanksgiving.
Speaker 2:Christmas.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of these kinds of conversations.
Speaker 2:It's funny, even Halloween. Oh yeah, halloween's one of those times where it's like, oh my goodness, it can be a thing.
Speaker 1:But yeah, sorry, halloween is also my least favorite thing. I'm not a big dress up person, you know.
Speaker 2:You also didn't grow up with it.
Speaker 1:I don't think that has anything to do with whether I like to dress up or not.
Speaker 2:I disagree, you do.
Speaker 1:Yes, do you love to dress up? Like is like the most favorite thing you've ever done is dressing up.
Speaker 2:It's not my most favorite thing I've ever done. I think it's very enjoyable and I love a family costume.
Speaker 1:The least favorite thing is to dress up.
Speaker 2:Like in all of life.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can't think of anything I dislike more, but I think I've been thinking about this.
Speaker 2:We just had a total side to the fashion.
Speaker 1:I mean, I wasn't yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't like dressing up.
Speaker 1:But I think this, this is why I was thinking about it, because these, all these holidays and things are coming up, halloween included, and I, I do. I do think that oftentimes couples get sideways and how they communicate within laws about these things brothers and laws, sisters and laws, mothers and fathers and laws um uncles and laws, and, and I, and I do think that I think it's still just one law, uncle's law. I mean an uncle in law and even a thing.
Speaker 2:I know what you said uncles and laws.
Speaker 1:Oh well, I'm tired. Um, so anyway, I I I do think that a way for couples to approach this in an effective way, let's let's take a birthday, for example, or a Halloween, for let's stick with the birthday example, thinking through like, hey, in your family, when you celebrated birthdays, what did you really enjoy about how your family did it Like? What do you want to make sure that we like, keep in, like our family history, our family process of celebrating birthdays? I like this. And and then, in that way, you can get at the idea of what are your expectations about what this looks like.
Speaker 2:Here's what I like about that. And then here's, I think, a little bit of what's sticky about that. What I love about that is that's what we're actually talking about. Like, I think that's what we're trying to actually talk about.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:What I think is sticky about that is immediately I'm like, well, yeah, that would be great if that's how we did the birthday. But I also said that I only wanted your parents to come to the hospital after the baby was born for 25 minutes, and you let them stay for two and a half hours. So it doesn't really matter what I want.
Speaker 1:Sure, that would seems like there's some resentment there that you should work through. No, no, I get that.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying, like that is how things this simple conversation. Because, because, there always is history and even if go ahead.
Speaker 1:But I think there's a second part to the conversation, because what we're talking about is having the conversation in a new way. So your head so yes, you have to be aware of there can be some of that baggage.
Speaker 2:but I'm just saying like when does that get to come up Next?
Speaker 1:So, for example, so you've established what it is that you want, and then you say, okay, how can we communicate this to our families? What is going to be a way that's going to feel good for both of us in terms of communicating this with our families? I think that that's how you get at the not repeating. I'd said I didn't want your parents to come to the hospital or whatever, and they did.
Speaker 2:Right, I think, yes. I think, though, that that is the next place, though, where things get sideways, because now we're talking about the hospital, which, if our baby is three was three years ago, so now it's like, oh my goodness. And now everyone's back to like either despairing or angry, or now sure like oh, you just hate my parents. I'm like they just were excited and right, you're back. You're like stuck and now you're not talking about what you came to talk about.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So either I think those things need to be resolved, so somehow there needs to be some like accountability or some forgiveness.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:And that birth story conversation or if that can't happen in that moment we have to stay on topics. We have to agree. You're right, that was a disaster.
Speaker 1:I don't want that this should go. I don't want that to happen Like this is why we're having a conversation in this way so that doesn't happen again. Correct?
Speaker 2:I think that that comment while I hope that you will all like jot that down it's really hard to come up with in the moment, unless you're prepared and be like hey, we're going to talk about our pretend baby's birthday, right? I know that that is tough. This could be a tough conversation and all things can get brought up, and of course you know I get that. Let's not, can we like?
Speaker 2:let's try to stay on topic. I really want this to go well. I really want you to feel respected and I know historically you haven't something like that.
Speaker 1:You know, like just go ahead.
Speaker 2:Stephen always uses the word clunky and it's my favorite thing, like be as clunky as you need to be to say I know where it could go wrong. I know that sometimes I get super defensive. I know that sometimes I have totally dodged this conversation and not had it proactively. Right, you are not wrong. Or I know I get really attacking, I know.
Speaker 2:I can be really critical. I know that I can bring up old things. I'm going to try really hard to stay on topic. I don't want to do that. I really want this to go well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And so, again, I think a way to approach these conversations whether it's Christmas, thanksgiving, vacation, what you want to do on the weekend, if you're going over to dinner, you know, at a parent's house is to ask the question hey, what did you really like or appreciate about this event or this experience in your life as a kid?
Speaker 2:What about this is important to you? Yeah, yeah and how so?
Speaker 1:And what do we? What like? How do we want to preserve that? Like? How do we like, what would it look like for us to keep that great thing that you loved and enjoyed about this experience? And both share that, like? This is what's really important to me, this is what's important to me and think about, okay, how can we meld those two things together in a way that feels good for us? And then the question is and how can we communicate this with our families together? And I think that if you just start there, you can shift the conversation away from those negative, like past experiences granted, like you were saying, like you might need to resolve some of those so that you can, but I think that it can be a good approach to being on the same page, so that you can communicate the boundaries and the things that you want with your family.
Speaker 1:Because I think oftentimes, like, if the family sees that you're on the same page, there's not much to, yeah, to push back on or to or to be confused about, because I really think that that's what can happen is like your family can get confused and like well, you said this and then you said this. Like which one are we doing?
Speaker 2:And again we are talking about. I think you use the word normal, which I think that's a relative word, but you know, healthy interaction, yeah, yeah, Family. Who who genuinely wants to know? And isn't trying to violate your boundaries, but it's just like, what's the plan? Yeah, it'd be great to know one.
Speaker 1:Yeah even if they can be pushy about it or have an agenda or have their own thoughts or their own ideas or things that they want. I mean, that's fine. People like you're a human being. We all have those things.
Speaker 2:And I think then, in terms of like, how you communicate that together, when you said that word, like it doesn't mean you both have to be on the call or you both must be, there in person, like it doesn't, but like we are going to be clear about the language we use and we're going to be really respectful and say like we really want to spend time with you or it's really important to us that our pretend baby gets to have as many people there to celebrate them as want to be.
Speaker 2:Also, there are three that can be really overwhelming, so we were thinking this would be a great way for you to get to be involved and for them to actually enjoy it. Not whatever it is, it doesn't really matter, yeah but where you are communicating in a very clear but also way that like honors how you feel about that relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and again. I think the key is you as partners, communicating your expectations and being on the same page first, yes, in terms of that.
Speaker 2:When you both are clear, like you said, with curious questions and like I don't understand that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't. That is not a value of mine. I want to know more, though. I know it's important to you. I kind of like how you turned out.
Speaker 1:So right, Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Like tell me, like, walk me through it, show me, paint me the picture, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think you know if we do think you know for our fake three year old, but we do have three kids, so for for for our real kids. I do think that this conversation, let's say particularly around birthdays, does feel like we have a good system, we have a good like like. We have the same, I think, expectations about what that looks like and how we involve other people, because we've had some not great conversations about it. But I, but I do think that we ended up having this conversation about like well, what do we like and what did we like about birthdays, and what is the feeling of a birthday that we want our kids to have? And then how can we achieve that together?
Speaker 2:I like that. I think the other thing that is important to be very tender with is saying like what you fear about the other persons, like I know, and I hope this is okay to share, but I know you've said in the past like when your whole family is involved in our kids' birthday, my opinion can feel like it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah.
Speaker 2:And that I care about that. How Stephen says that you know like your family takes over, they're super controlling, is really different from I wanna get to feel like I'm a part of it and like I get to say, and where we get this from and also my communication.
Speaker 1:like your family's, controlling always takes over. Honestly, a lot of that is about just my own fear. Like my own fear.
Speaker 2:Because I think I'm just saying these are the things that come out.
Speaker 1:Right, because if you, you know, kind of like, without that fear, you know what, like your family isn't that way. Your family's just excited and they just like to celebrate and that is a good thing. Like when you're communicating about my family, like one of your fears is like I just want it to feel like a celebration, sure, and I have a fear that if we- Well, yeah, the way you just made it worse, did it the?
Speaker 1:way you did it, it wouldn't be celebratory. Okay, I mean, that doesn't mean that you don't think my family is fun or terrible. You know curmudgens. It just means like I fear that it won't feel celebrated, I fear that I could feel controlled. But if we actually hash that out, we don't have to fear those things. We can be aware of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, neither of us wants that for the other partners. It's never. I mean I think never. And again, we are talking about couple relationships where they're pursuing health right. So you're like I want Stephen to feel, as a part of our kids' birthday, as I do.
Speaker 1:Sure cool.
Speaker 2:In fact, I need Stephen to be as a part of our kids' birthday as. I am and I don't want to take over. I know Stephen doesn't want to take over, but those are the fears that start getting activated and it's like, wow, you're people, they're doing this to us and I think so. I think, yes, this is what I really love, this is what's important to me, this is what can bubble up as a fear, and not getting to do it that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so I think one of the things that helps with communication with in-laws about any kind of boundary like this, is that getting on the same page as partners so that you can have that clear, effective proactive joint communication with your family.
Speaker 1:Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.