What do you do when you think your partner's mental health is negatively impacting your family? How do you bring it up? What if your partner dismisses your concerns? Join Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP as we shed light on the profound impact that conditions such as anxiety, depression, ADHD, and unresolved trauma can have on a family. This episode is an invitation to acknowledge, address, and approach these struggles with the compassion and awareness they deserve, ensuring that these issues don't remain in the shadows to disrupt the harmony at home.
What do you do when you think your partner's mental health is negatively impacting your family? How do you bring it up? What if your partner dismisses your concerns? Join Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP as we shed light on the profound impact that conditions such as anxiety, depression, ADHD, and unresolved trauma can have on a family. This episode is an invitation to acknowledge, address, and approach these struggles with the compassion and awareness they deserve, ensuring that these issues don't remain in the shadows to disrupt the harmony at home.
Hello and welcome, mrs. Couples Counseling for Parents. They show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Hiya parents, our Dad, dr Steven Mitchell, and our Mom, erin Mitchell. Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Steven Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell, and on today's show we want to talk about how or what you can do in your parenting partnership if it is being impacted by one of the partners facing some challenges with mental health and mental health things like depression, anxiety, adhd dealing or processing trauma, some kind of quote, unquote diagnosis.
Speaker 2:And maybe not even a diagnosis. Really Right, though, but I think that's already going to be one of the things we talk about. Is this diagnosable, done?
Speaker 1:done, yeah, and forecasting Soon to come. Well, I think that's the thing that comes up.
Speaker 2:And I think that the reason we're talking about this is this is a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It it.
Speaker 1:A lot, a lot of couples that we talk to are dealing with some impact from mental health in their parenting partner relationship. It, even if it's not diagnosable. I was just going to say that. I was just going to say that.
Speaker 2:Because I think, if it just because you don't have a diagnosis or because it's not, you don't have anxiety, that is diagnosable, right Doesn't mean anxiety is not impacting your family system.
Speaker 1:And I would say that that's probably more more of the case.
Speaker 2:Like I, think a lot, a lot of like it's.
Speaker 1:It's a typical thing in the midst of the stress of life to respond to life with depression, anxiety, like decreased mood, low motivation and, you know, worry, all of those kinds of things, just because life can be stressful.
Speaker 2:Well, I was just going to say, we live in Colorado in the United States, and it's winter here and one of our kids and I like winter the least.
Speaker 1:I love winter.
Speaker 2:I know you do and some of our other kids also share in that, but for me and one of our kids it's less time outside being active and could we be yes. Sometimes are we yes, but not in the ways that we enjoy more, and I would not say that our kid or nor I are depressed Right. However, it is a harder season where it's just like it's cold again, and that means more clothes and it takes longer to get out the door.
Speaker 1:And yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying like, but but that doesn't mean that we're not impacting, and that doesn't mean that you're not impacted because, I don't want to spend 27 minutes getting everybody in 17 layers.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So let's, so, let's, let's give like a story, give a scene of what we're talking about and how this might look, and then we'll use it to be a springboard for a conversation.
Speaker 1:So here's the case example we have Bella and Francesca and they've been together for 12 years and they have three kids. Bella has faced some challenges with anxiety on and off throughout the couple's relationship and these challenges have been felt with differing levels of intensity for Francesca. Before kids, francesca felt concern for Bella and did everything she could to be supportive. She could see Bella's struggle but also did not feel pulled into Bella's struggle in a way that was overwhelming to her. Yeah, since having kids, francesca has experienced Bella's anxiety differently and in a more intense manner. Bella's anxiety, understandably, has felt heightened as the couple tries to navigate the complexity of parenting, work and staying connected as a couple, and Francesca has noticed that Bella can more easily become irritated and rigid with the kids because she feels overwhelmed.
Speaker 1:Now Francesca is starting to feel concerned that Bella's anxiety is negatively impacting the whole family system and she does not want the kids to only experience Bella as stressed out and grumpy. Now Francesca has tried to mention her concern to Bella and asked her to think about taking some practical steps to help her deal with her anxiety. Bella's responded with dismissiveness and avoidance on the most part. She might say something like this to Francesca look, I'm dealing with it. Okay, I don't think it's that bad and every parent gets stressed you do the same thing. I don't think I need to go to therapy or do something drastic, I'm handling it. And this response leads to frustration and conflict for the couple, and Francesca is beginning to sense a heightened level of anger towards Bella because she does not feel understood and feels that Bella is not aware of how she is impacting the family as a whole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that's entirely relatable.
Speaker 1:Like. This is a conversation that we have all the time with couples. Yes, yes, yes, Very like.
Speaker 2:Sometimes in the couples we're like working with couple to couple, but sometimes just like in the interactions with couples we get to talk to on social media platforms.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, let's be honest, like we've had this conversation. Like we have.
Speaker 2:From both sides. From both sides, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so you know, it's not a, it's not a strange conversation, even to us.
Speaker 2:I think, because I think what we're talking about. I really like the example. Well done.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Because Bella's not has, like some diagnosis that she's not respecting.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Because that is a completely different conversation, although sometimes I think I do think partners are asking to see if maybe there should be a diagnosis, if there should be maybe some, you know, intentional, I'm gonna say medical care.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, well, I can let you finish.
Speaker 2:I'm just saying these are kind of different conversations, but one of the things I think we're talking about is, just like you don't seem yourself, and I think that is enough to make it an important big deal. It doesn't have to be this massive diagnosis deal, although, again, that is a very important thing. But what I'm saying to you, what Francesca is saying to Bella, is you're not yourself.
Speaker 1:And particularly, you're not yourself with the kids, and I think that this is where this gets really, where this begins to feel very important to partners. So, like, if you notice, like, Francesca To both partners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, francesca and Bella like they felt like this was a thing that they were able to handle relatively, you know fine. Then they had kids and the concern from Francesca's sense is, I feel like our kids are not getting the best version of you, bella, and that, and them not getting the best version of you is it's like negative for them. It just is between a parent-child like relationship, like you're kind of more irritable, you may be more snappy, more terse, more short tempered, whatever it might be, and that is why, all of a sudden, this kind of moves up the list of really important things that needs to be dealt with now.
Speaker 2:Correct Because, well, I think my willingness to absorb your I can contain, like your so Francesca is sitting there trying to contain. Francesca's ability to contain her own frustration or irritation or the impact of Bella's anxiety before kids is like that's something you're struggling with. I'm here to support you but like that's not something I'm gonna take on. It does I can like hold myself in this and that's yours and I'm here with you, Not like oh, you should go away and deal with that.
Speaker 2:I don't mean like that but, like you know, some individuation there.
Speaker 1:But once it starts impacting my kids, francesca's kids, what Bella's kids too right, but when she sees that no, but I'm just saying like that is where I'm like hey, this isn't just a you thing anymore.
Speaker 2:Like you're Right, right.
Speaker 1:Well, this is also like, I think very much from that standpoint of what you're talking about. Francesca has the maturity and the ability to navigate, interacting with Bella's anxiety, and the kids don't have the maturity and the ability, necessarily because they're kids.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that that's a little bit untrue. Those kids are learning how to do that, but in ways that aren't.
Speaker 1:They should not be having to deal with, right exactly exactly, and so that's that's what Francesca's like, enough. And then I imagine Bella's response, because I'll just say I've been the Bella in this situation before. I have too, but yes, but I'll just, you know, me and Bella, you know we're just rocking it out over here, being anxious, impacting the system. I think Bella probably feels first of all a level of embarrassment, a level of defensiveness, because she doesn't wanna sit there and be thinking of herself as a parent as negatively impacting her kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, none of us want that.
Speaker 1:And so there's that initial kind of Francesca saying something that's sort of like a it's not that bad, like it's okay, like you know what, like I'm fine, like I'll handle it, I'll deal with it, and a lot of that is just very protective and maybe rooted in some embarrassment. And then, if you heard what she said, she said you do the same thing. And I think that this is how you can get in a conflict of like well, you're anxious, or well, you're depressed, or well you've, and you're not dealing with it, and then you're not actually talking about the issue at hand. Right, and that's what we hear from a lot of couples is that is, they're stuck in that place.
Speaker 2:I said today in our post you probably haven't seen it, but I talked about like in a conversation like this which actually is not the exact conversation, but regardless like defensiveness shows up, criticism shows up, some like blame shifting shows up. But what wins a conversation like this, when it doesn't go well, is shame.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that's the overall winner, which makes everyone a loser, but like shame wins.
Speaker 1:Say more about that. How does shame win?
Speaker 2:Well, I think everything you just described in Bella's protectiveness is her not wanting to feel ashamed.
Speaker 1:Understandably, no one wants to feel like Because she's not being the best version of herself, because she's not being the best version of her parenting self, and she's like, oh man, like that's what she feels.
Speaker 2:Yes and yes. More than likely this isn't new for Bella, but it doesn't even matter. Even if it is, it's not the point. But it is really hard in a conversation like this not to hear you're a bad parent or you're doing a bad job with our kids.
Speaker 1:And, to be quite honest, like that gets said sometimes Like if we're you know, like in those, heated moments that you know Francesca's sitting there saying like well, you're being a terrible parent. How can you not be concerned about that?
Speaker 2:And that may or may not be exactly what Francesca is saying, but either way, it is saying like our kids deserve better than this. We deserve better than this. We are all being impacted by you not wanting to handle this and whatever handle means.
Speaker 1:So, guys, Well, so I'm. There's two things that are coming to my mind here in terms of so, what like? What do you do Like? What do you do Like? So this is the scenario. These are, you know, shame's present.
Speaker 1:There's, you know, more, more intensity around the topic, and there's there's there's kind of two principles that are coming to my mind. I'm curious what you think about them. I think I think the first one is related to partners having the kind of relationship that is open enough to hear from one another and, in another words, hear like how are you experiencing me? How are you seeing me? What do you, what do you think about how I handled that? What do you think about? You know, that interaction, whatever it might be like for this conversation to be different, there is a quality of relationship that partners need to have where they are open to one another. John Gottman calls this being open to one another's influence, being able to hear from one another, having a like. It's okay for you to reflect to me what you see about me and who I am. Yes, that is a level of relational maturity that is needed, I think.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I think. I think there's two things within that that are complicated. I know Two things within the two things that I said. So that makes Well, so far there's only one thing 24 things. You've always done this. Did I do the math right?
Speaker 1:I think I almost got a PhD in mathematics.
Speaker 2:That's the furthest thing from the truth. No, I think something that is already impacted, though, in becoming parents is that overall connectivity is almost always impacted, so like are how connected we are, because if we're both in like a great place relationally, you can be open.
Speaker 1:It's easier to hear things like that.
Speaker 2:But when we're already feeling this strain of sort of like the wear and tear of day to day life, it's harder. But then also, if you are struggling with some sort of extra anxiety or trending towards anxious, if anxiety is becoming a thing Again, we're using diagnoses terms. They don't have to be that. Have I said that already?
Speaker 1:You have. You've clarified.
Speaker 2:But like if you are struggling with feeling your best. That also places you at a lower capacity to hear To be open like that. So it's sort of feeling kicked while you're down. Yeah, I know yeah.
Speaker 1:I know. So you've expressed yes, that's the challenge. The reality is, you still need to be able to do it Like, and so I think that yes, so that's one principle. There has to be a level of openness and yes, I think you, in a very empathetic, compassionate way of pointing out what some of the challenges might be, to that Right.
Speaker 1:I think that there's also another principle, or what I might say like perspective, that you have to have in this, which is when these issues are at hand, oftentimes the bellas in the scenario are, they say, they kind of say like, look, I've got it, this is my own problem, this is my own struggle, I'm dealing with it, don't worry about it. And that just isn't true, because, because what we have to realize is we exist in a system. It's a, it's a subsystem, a relationship with our partner, but it's also a larger system. It's a in relationship with our kids. And there's no way for us to cite like kind of like, siphon off ourselves and say, oh, this is just me, an individual actor. What is happening for us, what is happening for Bella, is happening for everyone in the family system and Is impacting everyone, sure, sure.
Speaker 2:I understand what you're saying, right, right.
Speaker 1:And so, and so it's you can't. You can't take that line of like I've got it, it's just me. You have to realize, look, this is everybody and so there. So for Francesca to be like, hey, look, you don't just have a responsibility to yourself, bella, you have a responsibility to all of us to think about this, to be open to what I'm saying and then to do something about it is is very is is valid in a perspective that's needed in this conversation, I think.
Speaker 2:Is what you're saying, is our individual mental health being a priority is part of parenting, is part of being in a partnership.
Speaker 1:I mean, that is yes. Yeah, that is spot-on, that's a quote, you just just said it.
Speaker 2:She just said it but I think that that is what you're saying, like yeah don't get to any longer say like, okay, I hear you, I'm all right. I heard you like I'm on it right and then like put our head down and try harder, because that's the other thing about mental health. It's not a lack of effort, no one nobody's like boy, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1:I want to be so anxious, I want to be really down and depressed, like that's what I'm shooting for. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And and like I'm just gonna try harder, but that doesn't mean there isn't something to do it doesn't mean we don't have to try harder. But it's not a matter of like. Okay, I'll just wake up and try to be happier tomorrow. Oh, I just won't be anxious, I will.
Speaker 1:You know, that's not it right, and so I think that those are the principles that are needed, I think, for the Francesca's wait will you say them again? Yes, so the the first is that in the, in the partner relationship, yeah, there has to be an openness, a level of openness where you, where you are, were, you, invite one another to say, like, hey, like, reflect me back to me. Yeah, how are you experiencing me? How you know, how are you being?
Speaker 2:and it doesn't mean I'm gonna like it, but I will believe, right right and I want to hear from that, and that there's that invitation.
Speaker 1:So that's the first thing. I think the second thing is that there is no longer this individualized perspective, yes, on who you are as a, as a parent or as a partner, but it's what you said, that your individual mental health, overall wellness, overall wellness is directly related to your family's overall wellness and health. There's a systemic connection here, and so when you're when Francesca says to Bella hey, I feel like your anxiety Is impacting our system in a way that neither one of us want, that I don't think you want and that I don't want, like, can you do something about it? That Bella says, okay, like, like what do you mean? Like, help me understand. Like there's a conversation there that there's there's not conflict, there's not denial, there's not defensiveness, there's not blame, there's not letting your shame win. There is. Let's engage and let's talk about.
Speaker 2:I don't like it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean you have to like. No, I've never liked it when you've I've never liked it when you've said it to me.
Speaker 2:It doesn't, it doesn't feel good. We already typically, we already know yeah, but like oh, so now what? Now we have to take this seriously.
Speaker 1:This means I have to do something and then practically like, what does that mean? What is what is like doing something about it mean, and and I think that there's there's Multiple things I think there's, there's definitely, you know, there's definitely something like therapy that should, that can be done. I like to think of this in terms of my, my menu of five. I had a, a mentor years ago Dr Randall writes who introduced this idea to me. It was just really helpful and it's a menu of five and in it and anytime, there's Something like this, like like a mental health Challenge when your partner comes and says like, hey, you know, you're just not, I Think you're not being who you want to be. There's five areas of life that you could look at in terms of and shit, you're right practically like, how can I engage? What can I do? And Well, I'll, I'll just, yeah, I'll do them this way.
Speaker 1:So there's there's definitely the, the Psychotherapy. Go see a therapist, like see if maybe there is something, a diagnosis or something that is present. But if the aid but you, you know, to see a therapist like that's just useful period to talk about your life and to, you know, kind of address some of these things, there's the, the medication route that could be beneficial. You know, maybe you do need to explore that with a physician, a psychiatrist. You know, maybe there is a chemical imbalance that that could really, that, if addressed, could really be helpful. I will say this research is very clear if you just take medication, it's 50% effective. If you take medication and do psychotherapy, it's 75% effective. And so I would say those two often times go together. I would say also, like those are important decisions in terms, especially if you're taking medication. So you, you know, consult a physician, consult someone who knows about those things, think about it. You know that's those that's important to that decision. So those are two things, so medication Therapy.
Speaker 1:Another one is creativity to engage in something that Sort of draws you out. That could be woodworking, that could be drawing, that could be music, that could be cooking, that could be pottery, that could be web design, that could be any. Something that Activates a creative place in you is really beneficial. I think the fourth is movement. Notice I didn't say exercise, I just said movement, taking your body and using it, walking. Maybe it is exercise, sure. Maybe it's just walking your dog on a regular basis, maybe it's dancing. Whatever it might be, movement is a significant part of our overall wellness. That's what all the research shows as well Significantly helps depression, anxiety, adhd, trauma, all these things. So movement and then the final one is engage your spirituality, engage the transcendent.
Speaker 1:Whatever that means, yeah whatever that I'm not saying engage your religion. Maybe it is your religion, but it's that idea of the mystery and there's greater things in life, and so thinking about, maybe it's meditation, maybe it's prayer, maybe it's being in nature, Maybe it is you know mindful.
Speaker 1:All of these things are part of your spirituality. So there's medication, there's psychotherapy, there's creativity, there's movement and there's spirituality. And if your partner is coming to you and saying, hey, I think there's something going on, I want you to do something about it. Those are five options for you about what you can practically do.
Speaker 2:I think it's very, very important. So there's two things I'm thinking of as you're talking about those, because I've heard those a lot. I like them. I think there's nuance within each of them.
Speaker 1:Sure sure.
Speaker 2:But especially in postpartum, when hormones are and by postpartum I guess I'm thinking about like 18 months after a baby is born for the birth partner. So I think it's very, very, very important, even if you feel perfectly fine and healthy, to be doing regular check-ins on this regardless. I think it's every six weeks. And in the United States you're not gonna get that from a healthcare practitioner. You don't have that built into. Well, maybe you do, most people don't have that built into their follow-up care, some kind of check-in, some kind of.
Speaker 2:So you can do this on your own. We can put a link in this story too, because I forget what that.
Speaker 1:In the podcast. Yeah, so there is a helpful test, like in terms of postpartum itself. It's the Enberg postpartum scale and basically it helps measure if someone, postpartum, is feeling depressed or anxious, and so it's more about depression. But I think all you're trying to say is like to be evaluating these things and then also just noting that doing these five things in your life just period are gonna be beneficial to your mental health.
Speaker 2:But that's the second part. I was going to say so yes, doing those check-ins, but also both partners doing those check-ins. You don't just have to have been the person to have a baby, to have postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, so both, but we're not just talking postpartum.
Speaker 1:We're talking in general about your specific age or that timeline.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then the second thing I was going to say about that menu of five is more effective, it is more helpful if it is done as a family system. Couple's therapy is highly effective in treating an individual's depression, and more anxiety. Because, same thing we talked about earlier, these things aren't happening in a vacuum. So having that support, feeling like your partner understands what's going on that is what I was going to say. And then, overall for a family system, it is good for our kids to see us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these are all good practices.
Speaker 2:Intentionally practicing these things.
Speaker 1:I mean, think about that, teaching your kids about creativity, movement, spirituality, those kinds of things will help them with their own mental health, their own wellness, and so, again, this is, there has to be a level of openness that you have to your partner.
Speaker 2:Where you believe them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where you can say, hey, what do you see? And then there has to be a recognition that what is happening for me is happening for my family system, and then take the menu of five and that's how you can move into quick, practical, simple action to address these things, if this is something that you and your partner are experiencing in your relationship. Today's show was produced by Aaron and Steven Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.