Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
Navigating Love and ADHD: An Interview with ADHD Advocate and Coach Katy Weber
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Every parenting partnership has its struggles, but when ADHD is in the mix, it's like navigating an intricate dance of dopamine, interest, and misunderstanding. Katy Weber shares her wisdom on fostering teamwork in a couple relationship impacted by ADHD and reframing ADHD as a joint adventure rather than a solitary battle.
Join Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP as they talk with Katy about this unique and challenging couple dynamic and share some of their own story about being impacted by ADHD symptoms in their parenting partner relationship.
Hello and welcome, mrs Couples Counseling for Parents. They show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents Our Dad, dr Steven Mitchell, and our Mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents.
Speaker 2:I'm Dr Steven Mitchell, and Erin and I are so excited to share with you our interview with ADHD advocate Katie Weber.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest conflicts that we see in couples is often times when there is one partner that is diagnosed with ADHD or has ADHD-like symptoms, and navigating a couple relationship, as you are parenting, in the midst of that context of ADHD can be really challenging for a lot of couples, and so we wanted to talk with Katie about this very unique and particular dynamic in parenting partner relationship. So let's jump in, and thanks for joining us today. We have Katie Weber with us, and Katie Weber is an ADHD advocate and coach, founder of Women in ADHD and author of the book Worth it A Journey to Food and Body Freedom. Katie is also the host and producer of the Women in ADHD podcast, which is ranked among the top half percent of all podcasts worldwide. She has more than 175,000 followers across her social media platforms, and Katie was diagnosed with ADHD at the age of 45. And Katie's made it her mission to help neurodivergent women learn to love their brains and live a more fulfilling and gratifying life.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Katie, for being here. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. We're really excited.
Speaker 2:And Katie I was saying like right before we started I really do believe this is one of the most anticipated shows that we have had yet on our podcast, because ADHD and couple relationships and like how it impacts parenting and all those things is really a huge, huge topic for our community. So this is great. People are going to love it already I know.
Speaker 2:But yeah, thank you so much for joining us and maybe one of the things that we can just jump in to, you kind of mentioned a little bit well in the bio there. It was just saying you know you were diagnosed with ADHD at 45 and that kind of motivated your passion in terms of what you're doing now. Maybe could you tell us just a little bit about that, in terms of a little bit more of that story, how that developed for you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so you know, I was diagnosed at the beginning of the pandemic and I had, you know, an experience like, I think, many moms and wives and women out there at the pandemic, where my kids were home, my husband was home and we were trying to deal with remote learning, and I felt like that was going to be also the perfect time for me to really like invest in my business, because I had a lot of like nervous energy, I don't know, and I remember, you know, I just was complaining to my therapist about the fact that I just felt like I was in suspended animation.
Speaker 4:I just couldn't get anything done. I felt like, you know, all of a sudden it was like I was the butler, the housekeeper, the chef, the teacher, I mean all of these things. All of these roles were thrust on us. All of my systems and organizational structures were just like thrown out the window and I felt like I was just sitting there waiting for somebody to like burst out of the room and say, oh my God, zoom, I can't get on Zoom, or Wi-Fi is out, or all of these things, and my kids were like I'm hungry and I'm like I just fed you, like it was just this constant barrage of stuff. And.
Speaker 4:I was finding it really really difficult to get anything done, and I think that's where it all kind of started for me, when I was explaining this to my therapist and she had been talking to me over the years. My therapist has ADHD and she was diagnosed after her middle school son was diagnosed, which I think is very common. A lot of women are diagnosed after their children and so she had been.
Speaker 4:You know, once you have your ADHD diagnosis, you kind of look around and you're like, oh yeah, I see all of these other people who also have this right, and so she was gently suggesting to me over the years that I should look into this from some of the things I had been talking about in our sessions. And when the pandemic hit, she said, look, I really want you to look into this. And I said, I mean, all right, like I just never felt like it was a diagnosis I related to. I mean, for a lot of reasons I sort of had this stereotype of a little boy who couldn't sit still and I didn't think of myself as hyperactive. I didn't think of myself as having any sort of attention issues. I mean, I felt like I didn't have a deficit of attention and I almost was like insulted when she kept suggesting to me that I had it, because I was like what do you think of me, right?
Speaker 4:Because, I thought you know, I had a career in a book. I was not unsuccessful, but she saw how I spoke of myself in this very terrible way and so I took an ADHD test online and it was a general one for adults and I kind of related to a few of the things, but I didn't like pass with flying colors.
Speaker 4:I wasn't convinced yet. And then I took an ADHD online test for women, specifically for women, and that's where it just hit me like a ton of bricks, where I was just like oh, oh, wow. Like the questions for ADHD women were much more around emotional dysregulation and our lifestyle, and the questions were like do you hate when people show up at your house unannounced? Right, I was like wait, that's a. Thing. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so the questions about like hating to stand in line, and it really started opening my eyes to what hyperactivity looks like beyond just this image of a little boy. And that's where I was like oh okay, this is not necessarily, we're not just talking about fidget spinners here.
Speaker 4:We're talking about some like deep seated shame around who I am as a mother and a partner. And so that's when I was like, okay, I'm going to start looking into this. And then, once I started looking into it, it was just this profound experience of looking over my whole life through this lens and just realizing all of these seemingly random struggles that were hitting me, like, oh, this all comes back to this diagnosis. It was sensory things around motherhood and babies and difficulties I had in school. It just felt like ADHD was reaching everything in my life in such this incredible way. And so, and that's when I was like, am I the only woman, like I can't be the only woman who has had this experience diagnosed well into adulthood and to have this really profound shift in my self-concept?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and that's when I started the podcast Interview Other Women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what's so interesting is what you're. There's that little image of the little boy right that can't pay attention, but you're talking about some of the emotional components and it sounds like you're also saying like maybe there are some unique factors for ADHD and individuals who identify as women, individuals who identify as men and so forth and so on. So maybe there's some different ways that ADHD manifests along those lines, maybe even cultural scripts, the expectations for women. All these feels like it could be very complex, but I guess how would you define what ADHD is? And then do you see some unique factors between, like you specifically said, I took ADHD test for women and that really helped. Like what are those? Maybe?
Speaker 3:Some of those characteristics for women?
Speaker 2:Yeah, some of those gender characteristics maybe yeah.
Speaker 4:I mean, that's like I had a guest who once called it like picking a fish hook out of a bowl of fish hooks. What a couple of us to try to understand some of this right Because it feels like, yeah, is this? You know, I often ask that question on my podcast, which is like wait a minute, is this ADHD or am I just an angry feminist? Right yeah.
Speaker 4:Because a lot of this does come down to socialization, right, yeah, so okay, so ADHD is, essentially it's a neuro, you know, it's diagnosed as a neurodevelopmental disorder, right, and so it's characterized by, fundamentally, it's characterized by a deficiency of dopamine in the brain, and so that's a really important thing to understand when it comes to the why behind a lot of behaviors. And so, you know, seeking dopamine means we're going to have an interest-based brain, an interest-based nervous system versus, say, an important space nervous system, which is, when you hear the term, neurotypical, that's usually the distinction between neurotypical and neurodivergent is.
Speaker 4:This is the way in which our brains kind of are fired up, and so when you have an interest-based brain, it's going to cause you to experience a lot of. You know, you're always going to sort of chase the shiny object.
Speaker 4:And so that's going to create a lot of distraction, it's going to create disorganization, it creates a hyperarousal around a lot of things and, for the most part, it creates a lot of difficulty with executive functioning. And executive functioning which is funny to me because it's like executive functioning is so central to ADHD and the universal ADHD experiences in adults. From what I've you know, from anyone I've interviewed It- comes down to a lot of. It comes down to executive functioning. Was this ever a term I heard before?
Speaker 4:I was diagnosed with ADHD and was kind of inducted into the lexicon of ADHD. Never Like I'd never heard that term, and yet it's so central to living with ADHD. So, you know, executive functioning is a set of skills that are include, you know, working memory and problem solving and self-control, so, and it all really comes back down to dopamine seeking, and so that's kind of the like nerdy science part of it, so, but, but, but it's really helpful in terms of just and Katie can can ask you real quick dopamine, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah? So for for everyone out there who maybe does a dopamine like okay, I've heard that term, but dopamine being that part of our brain that seeks like enjoyment and put like, when we do something that we enjoy or, as you're saying, something that's interesting, it spikes that dopamine. It kind of locks it in our brain and says, oh, you should do this again. This is, this is something that makes you feel good, that gives you pleasure. So I mean eating a good meal, you know, going outside, doing something again that you're interested in. Oftentimes it's also associated with, like you know, substances. So that's why substances feel so good. They really get that spike in that dopamine. But I think that that's a really key, key component, because it matches that interest. Dopamine makes you interested in things, as you're saying. Is that? Would that sound right to you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely. And then, on the flip side, it makes it really, really difficult to do tasks that don't offer a lot of dopamine and as a mother, you know, that's like a lot of domestic tasks are mundane and really routine and very, very difficult for people with ADHD, which is where we come to this sort of shame element that a lot of women hold, which is like I should be able to do these things. They're not difficult.
Speaker 4:In fact they're quite easy, but I literally cannot do it. And that's, I think, where a lot of the issue comes, especially with, like communicating, communicating how hard that struggle actually is to somebody who doesn't understand why you're not able to do relatively simple things.
Speaker 3:So I, unless you had a different direction of wanting to go, Katie. I think that is why this interview, what you just said, is so highly anticipated, Because I think that is where couples find parenting partners specifically a lot of friction.
Speaker 2:I think I speak professionally and personally on that one.
Speaker 3:So can you tell us, like either personally, or what you've learned, or, however, like what does that look like? Or what has that looked like in your couple relationship? Or you know that those tasks either, or those conversations about like the shame for yourself, about why can't I do these, or why are these easy things not at all simple, or like anything can you give more to that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know it's funny. It reminds me of a story where I was having a sonogram you know it was my annual mammogram sonogram and I had the sonogram technician was making small talk and she was like, what do you do? And I'm like I'm an ADHD coach for adults. And she said, oh well, what does ADHD look like in adults? And I was explaining and I was like on the spot I was like, uh, it's really hard to like do the dishes and you feel kind of you know like it's really easy to like, you know, create a new website on the fly or like accidentally start a business, but things like folding the laundry can be really, really difficult. And she was like, oh, that sounds a lot like my husband. He's a stay-at-home dad and whenever I get home from work the house is just a disaster and he's been tinkering with some new toy and he's just like I find it really difficult to get him to do a lot of the cleanup. And I was like, well, that actually sounds an awful lot like ADHD.
Speaker 4:She was like no, he's just lazy. And I had that moment of like oh okay, I don't really want to insert myself in your marriage right now, but oh, like you know, it's like their whole marriage, just dynamics, just like flash before my eyes in a very uncomfortable way, because I feel like a lot of these traits are historically looked at as character flaws.
Speaker 4:Right that there's an inherent belief that you could do the thing, whether it's clean up your clutter, whether it's be on time, time management, remembering things, remembering to call me back. You know some of these things that a lot of us struggle with that you could do it if you really cared. So if you're not doing it, you don't care enough about me, about other people or about the thing, and so I think a lot of the time, you know, when you live with ADHD, which you've lived with your whole life, whether you've been diagnosed or not, you've been sort of you've been accused of being lazy, of being inconsiderate of not trying hard enough.
Speaker 4:You know, you see our report card, a lot of us our report card said things like you know it doesn't apply herself or not meeting the potential, more effort is needed. So, even though you're really the effort and the desire and you're really really trying always, it's always comes across as the opposite. It comes across that you don't care and that you aren't trying.
Speaker 4:And this creates such friction, right, I mean it just. First of all, it creates so. So many of us are diagnosed with depression for a reason. Right Long before we come to our ADHD diagnosis, we have this narrative of being a terrible, broken person who is inadvertently harming the people in our lives, and I think that's super frustrating and it's really depressing. And then if you have a partner who then also believes that narrative and feeds into that narrative, it's you know, you feel like you know nobody's on my side and you know nobody really understands what I'm trying to do or what this struggle is. And it's very difficult to articulate because I think we internalize the belief of like well, I suppose I could do it, like it's not hard, I can do the, I can see myself doing these.
Speaker 4:Sometimes I'd be even able to do these things right, and so there's not a lot of consistency in terms of when we can and can't do things if we don't understand the interest level right. And how much interest based nervous system plays into this. So yeah, I think that answered the question.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, because I think what you spoke to is, I think, the example one. The example you used, I think, is basically the example we hear every other day. Do you think that's true? Because what it feels like is lazy and if you aren't going to fold that laundry, that means you think I'm going to fold that laundry, or that I enjoy folding that laundry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, this is all stuff I want to do. You want to do it, I want to. I love folding laundry.
Speaker 3:Yes, and the hurt then?
Speaker 2:Well, in the level of deep, like I think, I think it goes both ways right, there's the partner who isn't quote unquote the identified ADHD person, right, you know? And in their feeling taken advantage of, or their feeling misunderstood, in them, in themselves, like, oh yeah, like I just love doing all this stuff and I kind of like all this stuff gets dumped on me because I can do it and that's a story that they've had.
Speaker 2:Because, I will, or because that's a story they've had in their own life where they feel taken advantage of, or, you know, whatever it might be. And then for me, I think one of the most profound things that I've seen too, is just the level of like shame that the other partner who has the ADHD feels like. I mean, sitting there seeing this partner like, just like cry and just feel so, like I mean, I know, like I want to, I'm trying, you know, in what you're saying too, katie, sometimes they do so, you know, miraculously somehow they're like, yeah, and then a lot of times they don't, and then it does feel they get labeled as you're lazy, you don't care, you're selfish, you're. You know all these really, really like harsh, harsh words. And it's just this balance of you know you've got these two partners, one feeling so ashamed and like they're broken and can't do stuff and they really want to, and feeling really confused in this other partner who's just feeling overwhelmed and resentful and angry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and throw parenting in there and that's oh boy, that's a mess you know, yeah, and I think also not only that, but for somebody who, with ADHD, who might have like tried so many approaches and tactics in the past, they end up becoming really jaded and resentful when you try to problem solve with them too Right, which I think can also be a communication issue which is like they're not you know I want to help them and they don't want my help, when that person just feels like I have tried everything and I, you know, I'm tired of feeling like taking the blame, you know in all the ways.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that the key thing and it's kind of back to how you were describing ADHD that this isn't a willful thing, this isn't. This isn't the other partner sitting there being like I'm not going to do anything or I'm going to forget to pick up what you asked me to at the grocery store. You know, even though you texted it to me, but I, you know, forgot to bring my phone and I, you know, like whatever it might be, I feel personally attacked by that example.
Speaker 3:I just like to say so, that was yesterday. I'm not upset about it so.
Speaker 2:So maybe that that is something to say Like we, we do feel like we have these dynamics, even in our own relationship. I, you know, no one's been formally diagnosed with ADHD, but we have wondered if maybe there's one of us, that there's one of us that identifies that way and and honestly, I think Erin kind of does and she thinks I do. So you know, we'll have to figure that out, but but I think that, the thing being that this isn't a willful thing, this is really a brain chemistry thing, a brain setup thing, and it doesn't, it's just different. It's just someone's brain, your partner's brain, works differently, not wrong, or Because I think that that can be helpful for the person who has ADHD and for the partner to be like oh, this is just you operate differently, okay, and trying to start there in terms of understanding one another.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I always with my kids. I use the example of lefty scissors, you know, and it's like everybody has this pair of scissors and it's working fine for them. And then you give it to somebody with left hand who's left-handed, and they're like I don't know why these scissors don't work.
Speaker 4:Yeah working for everybody else and people are like, well, just try cutting harder, or, you know, just keep at it. And then you know just being like I don't know why it's not working for me and you just need the right scissors, you need the right approach.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that's my next question, and I think it's kind of a two-part question, or maybe it really isn't, but so a lot of people that we have heard from and talking about this, or even just people, reach out about this quite a bit honestly. They feel like their partner does know, or I know, you know, my partner was diagnosed 20 years ago. Or you know, I really think my partner has ADHD, but they are resistant. Or they know they have it, but you know it's something we don't talk about. Or there's still this I, when you were talking about this resistance to like, don't give me the like, maybe what we need to do is just a flow chart, so you know, like more strategies.
Speaker 3:It can feel, I Think, beyond shameful. I think it can feel really patronizing. I think it can feel like thank you so much for explaining to me all over again this morning that you don't understand me at all Um, those types of feelings. So I think there's this two-part thing like, so what are we supposed to do? Like, what expectations am I allowed to have? What? What does allowing your partner to not be wrong, but just different? Look like what does? What do we do then? I guess the question of like. So so what?
Speaker 2:here it is everybody. The solution is coming.
Speaker 4:I know I'm like Maybe I should write a book, so you go buy it. So God, I mean, I wish I had an easy solution to this. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I do because I would probably make a lot of money off of it but I think you know One of the reasons why ADHD coaching is such a popular modality For adults with ADHD is because the power is placed in the person's hand to make decisions and figure out what do they need and what do they, what will help them? And a lot of the times when especially when you're living life undiagnosed, you know you're, you're treading water, you're just kind of like constantly keeping up and you don't spend a lot of time thinking what do I need? What would help me right now?
Speaker 4:because we are such a place of shame so much of the time, and so I think one of the things that can really really help in a partnership is to Try to reduce the shame as much as possible, because that will, you know, bring them to a place where they can then problem solve right? You know, I what I work on with my clients a lot of the time and I think this can help with couples is like If you've done something and you feel really bad about it, I say like let's, let's use the mantra. This is information, and when you say this is great.
Speaker 4:I'm sure that takes you out of the emotional realm of like I'm such a terrible person. Why did I do this, what's wrong with me? And it takes you into a logical place where you can say what did I learn from this, what can I do differently next time? And you can start to ask the logical questions that will propel you forward. So, I think, with you know, as a couple, the, the encourage, you know, the the most important thing is to Remember you're on the same team, right?
Speaker 4:And so often, like we were saying, like sometimes, when you're, when you take the lead and say, let's, I'm gonna figure out how we're gonna solve this, you've taken them out of the driver's seat and now you're putting them back into a place of potential shame, and that can be really triggering for a lot of people with ADHD. So I think a lot of the time it's really like listen to them and and and support, you know, support them, but at the same time, also guide, help, guide them to making, you know, empowering themselves and make their own decisions and, if they're not at a place to do that yet, be understanding and have a lot of grace To, so that we can get them to a place.
Speaker 4:And and you know and that sometimes can just be, you know, reminding them of all the things that you love about them and and you know, reminding them that even though they may not be great at X, they're really great at Y and that there's always going to be kind of a yin yang to a lot of these ADHD qualities. There's always gonna be a positive side to a negative. You know, reframing is so important when it comes to a lot of these traits.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know that that's so interesting because you know Erin is right now, based on his face, that we are going someplace terrible well, you as the one with, you as the one with, ADHD. You can see him to. You saw it on his face in the In the relationship.
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that I have noticed in terms of for me to be able to think about Erin and how she operates in these terms really does you know that idea of this is information. It really has radically changed how I think about her in approaching so we had like we had this really big project that was due December 1 and I'm the type of person we knew about this project in September.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, maybe, maybe August and, and so I'm the type of person that says, okay, so let's map it out. What are we gonna do? We're gonna do a little bit, you know. You know every week up until that December 1, so that there's no stress, it'll be done, you know we'll be. You know we'll be cruising, we'll, maybe we'll even get it done early.
Speaker 2:And Erin, though, is sort of in charge of this project.
Speaker 2:She's sort of the driver of the project, and so a lot of that relies on her, and I just saw the days and the weeks Take by, and nothing was being done, and I think, historically, I would have gotten really, really angry and frustrated about that, been like come on, like this is important, I'm getting nervous and you're not helping me because I'm feeling nervous about this, and and like why are we waiting until the last minute?
Speaker 2:But I think one of the things I have learned about her is she has this Unbelievable capacity and ability to get things done when they need to be done, and Something that she's always told me. She said, stephen, I need momentum, I need to feel a sense of momentum to do something, and when I've seen it, when she feels the momentum, she gets stuff done, and so I just kept telling myself the information. I know she just needs momentum. She doesn't have momentum yet, and the momentum that she might need might might mean it needs to be two days before it's due. That's fine, I can do my part. She'll do her part. I don't need to help her strategize.
Speaker 2:I don't need to say anything help, strategize, yeah, yeah exactly that, because that would be condescending and I don't want to be condescending and it was really amazing Like I was able to be, like you know what that's up to, aaron, aaron will get it done. When Aaron needs to get it done, I'm gonna do what I can and I'm gonna leave it at that. And you know what? December 1 boom projects done, like it worked perfectly. She found the momentum she needed and I and we didn't. We didn't have a big Argument or fight about it there. It was just I knew that information, I knew how her brain worked, I knew how she brings herself to a project and in some ways I can look at that and kind of marvel at it. Be like man. I cannot believe that you can just sit down and get all of that done and it at once like I can't do that. I don't have that ability. I have to like slowly kind of plod along and that's and I see that is really kind of like a superpower.
Speaker 3:You are beginning to see that it used to feel really hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but I think it's things like that, like. Information can be power the information can be power. You can, you can try to be gracious and I still, at the same time, like I think I was able to, to express like my concerns or my or maybe my hopes, but I but not, but not pressure Aaron into like complying with that or, like you know, getting with the program and in doing things the way I would do them.
Speaker 3:Katie, how? Yes, I feel like that. I'm curious for you and your partner, if you feel comfortable, what did diagnosis do for you? And then I realizing I never asked the second part to my first question.
Speaker 2:Wait, way back then.
Speaker 3:Oh, actually this second part to this question, which is a lot of what we hear, is that diagnosis has, or because sometimes people have known for a while. You know, I was diagnosed when I was in high school or I was diagnosed whatever. But trying to sort of bring that back into this, into the forefront, because I think what Stephen said is what we have heard, and again, our population is very skewed because we almost work exclusively with parents, but that parenthood sort of shakes it all up all over again, like so we had a great system, like we. We knew how to work and operate with ADHD. We or or we didn't even know it existed, but it didn't matter.
Speaker 2:We could live with it. You know, like it was, it was alright.
Speaker 3:But then became parents and this isn't working, like we haven't yet found the our footing in this. And and then sometimes what we hear is there's sort of a screeching halt to like so diagnosis didn't help right away. Diagnosis almost made it worse or made it feel like and I think that that has been true for both partners so the person who gets diagnosed I don't think all the time feels immediate relief in it, like oh no, there's freedom. And then for the partner, like, so wait, now I just have to accept all these challenges. Or I'm just curious if, if you have felt that yourself or heard that and in the people you work with, and then what like how was, how was diagnosis for you and your partner? Did they have any challenges? Did? Did it just go perfectly smooth?
Speaker 2:It worked out fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I almost feel like I want to start a support group for partners of people who are diagnosed with adulthood, because they have to listen to us go on and on and on about how incredibly interesting this is, because, you know, my husband and I have been together for 20 years at this point and and yeah, I mean I feel like he has listened to me go on and on and on. I think he's probably an expert now and I, you know, been very fortunate. I think it's, if anything, it's really improved our relationship and but I, you know, it's not always the case. I think there are a lot of times where, with any sort of profound shift in your self identity, you know you're going to change, so your relationships are going to change, and some people might want to, you know, be very excited about that, and some people might have been much more comfortable with who you were before, right, Sure and then so wait, what was the question?
Speaker 4:again, you're asking me which one?
Speaker 3:Katie, I think there was a loaded complex question, I think. Maybe just tell the story, if there's anything significant that stands out for you of your own diagnosis and how maybe it shifted or shaped your relationship, I mean you know one of the things I think you know, because so many of us are diagnosed with depression and anxiety before we come to our ADHD diagnosis.
Speaker 4:It's been something I've thought about and talked about a lot with my guests which is like were we misdiagnosed? I mean obviously.
Speaker 4:ADHD and undiagnosed ADHD facilitates depression and anxiety. But is it a comorbidity or were we misdiagnosed? And so I think a lot about. You know my diagnoses and how. You know, a lot of the time, the emotional dysregulation that comes with ADHD. You know feeling like why am I suddenly yelling at everybody in my life? Why is everybody in my life walking around on eggshells? I feel like a terrible partner and a terrible mother because I don't understand why I'm acting the way I am, and so the depression comes from the confusion and the frustration of like I don't know why I am this way, I feel broken and so and so then you go to your doctor and you're like I'm sad, and they, you know, will often put us on antidepressants, which helps with the emotional regulation.
Speaker 4:It just doesn't often help with the executive dysfunction which is a pain in the cunt.
Speaker 4:So I had a lot of that experience where I was very grateful for antidepressants in like when I had newborns and was diagnosed with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. And you know we joke like. Once my son was 10 I was like, are we still calling it postpartum depression? But you know, it was that I just. I think a lot of us have so much of that feeling of like I don't understand why I act the way I do, I don't understand what's happening, and so then we feel like we're just bad at life and we feel like we're bad partners and we feel like we're bad parents, and so one of the things that can be so helpful with the diagnosis is giving the why behind a lot of these behaviors that you can then say like oh, okay, like you know and another thing I talk about with my kids, who have both been diagnosed with ADHD since I was diagnosed, as you know, adhd is an explanation, it's not an excuse right, it's not an excuse to be a jerk.
Speaker 4:It's not an excuse to just say, oh, I don't have to do this anymore because I don't like it. Right? I mean right, you know. And so we talk about, like I talk about the little child in my brain and the adult in my brain and how they have to have a conversation all the time and oftentimes the adult has to acknowledge the little child who's like I don't want to do this, and then the adult has to say you're right, it's boring and who would want to do this? But does it have to get done?
Speaker 4:And then you start asking the logical questions like does it have to get done? Can you get somebody else to do it? What can you get somebody to help you? When does it have to get done? You know a lot of those questions that then get you out of this executive dysfunction, paralysis and into kind of more of the momentum that you were talking about. So I think you know just being able to see myself, you know, and have a lot of the whys and a lot of the explanation as to why I was, you know, having this inexplicable rage. Sometimes I'm really being able to temper some of that and see what I call notes in the margin around my behaviors, where I can start walk around now understanding oh, am I? Why am I yelling at everybody?
Speaker 4:well, the TV's on and I haven't eaten, and you know like you start to see these road signs before you get to a place of dysregulation, and then it's. You know, then that has just made me really been able to, like I was saying before, I'm out of that emotional place and I'm into the more logical place where I can then say, yeah, I'm actually a phenomenal parent, I'm a phenomenal partner and I bring a lot to the table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, I was just. I think that how I love that idea that you know an explanation isn't an excuse. But I do think an explanation gives you a different option, which is to be gracious and compassionate with yourself and your partner, towards you and even towards your partner's experience of of you in the, in that kind of place, and I think that in that way, like an explanation is really really, really useful because it it makes it not personal. You kind of talk about it not being like bringing it out of that emotional place. Oftentimes for couples we talk about like all of these things happen and they feel so personal and of course, your personal life is impacted by it, but it but it is not your partner sitting there thinking, hmm, how can I make my partner's life the most miserable.
Speaker 2:You know, it can possibly be like that's not how most people relate to one another, and I think that this is one of those those things that it can. It can keep it from being personal and you can kind of look at it together as a as a couple, and be like, hey, in a sense, how are we gonna relate to ADHD? It's here, it's a member of our family. Neither one of us invited it, but guess what we get? We get to deal with it. So how do we want to do that, you know? And this is how it impacts me, and this is how it impacts us, and it's just a different, you know it's just a same team.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you mentioned earlier we.
Speaker 2:Yes you know good information. What do we do with the information we have? How do we make some decisions? So I, I, I think that that that is so important, like it's not an excuse, but it definitely can take it away from being this personal attack which I think sometimes it feels like.
Speaker 3:At least that's how we hear some about the person who has and is working with ADHD feels attacked by it like and by their partner. Like I am lazy, like I don't know why I can't, that shame, that shame is easily one of my least favorite words but also most favorite, because I think even just hearing the word it like brings the feeling like I feel that like just a weight of shame just saying it. And I think that this can be one of those things because I think people who have ADHD feel like their partner thinks they're lazy. They made themselves feel lazy, like what is wrong with me, why I knew Steven wanted me to, you know, map out my progress towards this goal and and I want to want that.
Speaker 3:I just you know I actually just how you, but it always makes me feel terrible in the end because I'm not gonna meet the weekly deadline and I'm not gonna. I just know that and I used to feel really bad about that. But I think one of the most hurtful places is that feeling of so misunderstood. I think we hear partners say often they're lazy, if they loved me, they would do whatever. Fill in the blank. They would make sure, fill in the blank, and our, the partner sitting there is. Everything I do is for this family, everything and I like. How could you think that?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're telling me I don't care when I care so deeply, looking so hard and feeling like it's not working it's not enough, yeah, that's that's. That's a deep, deep, deep hurt one.
Speaker 3:It just furthers any chasm that already existed. I mean it just goes over that rut and every time it comes up, but that the distance is a couple. I think when you mentioned to the rage piece, you know that that dysregulated, overstimulated, that mom who's like? There's a TV on a kid's crunching some food right here in my ear.
Speaker 2:I'm stepping on some crunchy. There's a.
Speaker 3:Lego in my toes, like you know these. And then they do have a feeling of why can't I be like the gentle mom who says, hey, everyone, mom's feeling overstimulated. Let's all take a pause in a deep breath, like what would you say to that parent out there who feels like it's me, I'm the problem, I, I lose my temper, I and you know I don't think it, we need to say it, but I think it's worth saying it's not okay to lose your temper.
Speaker 3:I'm not like well, yeah, I mean yeah but sure, just we do well, yes, I think, just within the realm of sure, sure yes, what, what, what message do you hope that parent hears?
Speaker 4:I mean, yeah God, I just want to give them all a hug, right?
Speaker 4:I just want to give that, those moms a hug, especially moms of newborns. Oh my goodness, the newborns phase is so hard. Yeah, you know, I feel like a lot of it comes down to just being able to recognize some of the markers that might trigger us and try to recognize those. You know, as you start to understand more around sensory issues. Sensory issues, our sensory processing, is a big thing. With a lot of people with ADHD, we have a really hard time filtering sensor, you know, sensations and filtering information. So that plays out in a lot of seemingly random ways, but a lot of it does have to do with noise or lights, you know, and kids are just tornadoes of chaos.
Speaker 4:So, you know, a lot of the time is like what do you need? Like a downtime? I think you know we do less. I think is maybe the advice I would give and let go of as much as you possibly can, because we're sort of sold this narrative. You know you can do it all and you can work and you can have kids and be perfect and do all this stuff and show up on social media and all of these things, that we are sort of sold and it's just too much and I think you know, really, it's the thing I'm always. The question I'm always asking myself is like how can I pull back? How can I do less?
Speaker 4:as a person as a human, and then that's okay. It doesn't mean I'm not phenomenal, and I think that's another thing that is really important, which is like asking for help is a strength, you know, and bringing people in who can help you, I think, is the number one thing you can do. And it's really difficult, it's really difficult to even think about articulate what help you need in the moment, and so that's why I always want to kind of get out of a place of overwhelm, so that you can then start to say, okay, where can I need help? You know.
Speaker 4:So many of us use that example, use the metaphor of the swan, where everybody thinks we're doing great and everybody's like I don't know what you're talking about. You have a great business, or you look like everything's wonderful and then underneath the surface you're just madly paddling and nobody can see that.
Speaker 2:So it's just for yourself?
Speaker 4:How can you get yourself to a state of just a little less overwhelm so that you can start to get some help in?
Speaker 3:there.
Speaker 3:It makes me think of this very popular meme from I think at least it became a part of my awareness during sort of the quarantine of COVID, which was moms. You know, it was sort of like the POV moms, like I'm not okay, I need help. Workplace You're doing such a great job, mom. No, I'm really not okay. Partner, I can't believe you're doing this all. I actually need help. You know in-laws parents I am shocked at what a superhero you are. Like I'm not okay, we're not okay. Parents need help. I think we try to say this to everybody, like our personal messages we're all lonely. If you know a parent they're lonely, check on them. If you can help them, help them. And then looking at your partner and like, oh, you're probably lonely too, like you need help, and I think I just think that speaks to so much of that. And so Katie for no no, no finish.
Speaker 3:Do you feel like there are some sort of universal help we can offer the people in our life that you know, because you said ask for help, do less so you can be present to the things you actually want to be present to and you can bring your whole self, but you need help to get there. Do you think that there are some universal helps that we need that we can sort of all blink at apply, or do you think it is sort of an individualized plan of figuring out like these are the things that activate me, this is the thing that actually feels helpful. These are the five things that don't feel helpful. Please never say this again.
Speaker 4:I will not tell you to buy another planner, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, I never invite Aaron to map out a plan ever anymore. I map it out for myself, because that's what I need.
Speaker 3:And we have had reverse shame in that, where I'm like that seems awful and you're a boring person. So you know what? There's nothing wrong with me either, just because we do this different. But yes, that's an aside. Do you think it's individualized or do you think there are some universals?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think there are a lot of universals. I mean, I think medication is a great place to start if you're diagnosed.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of different medications out there.
Speaker 4:It's really difficult to navigate. If you've the first one you try. Might not always work, but I say I think if you can find a medical practitioner who's willing to work with you in terms of titration and which type of medication it can be really life changing for a lot of people.
Speaker 4:So, you know, that's obviously a first place to start, but medication doesn't? You know, there's many of us, myself included, who just haven't gotten there, who haven't found their medication, and so in that instance, I feel like, you know, there's some things that are incredibly, have been incredibly helpful for me, which is, getting outside every day in nature is paramount, like I cannot, you know, and I'm not saying you have to like, do CrossFit or go to a gym or any of that.
Speaker 4:I'm just saying get outside and move your body and elevate your heart rate.
Speaker 4:That is the single best thing you can do for your brain. It's the single best thing you can do for your mental health. Like it's just, you know, and I feel like a lot of us sort of eye roll when you know if we have a disordered relationship with exercise or bodies, because you know, many of us do, because we're humans but I really do feel like that one thing can be so important and it also can get you used to just like these non negotiable spaces or blocks in your day of what it means to like practice, self care, and that can be really difficult to which is like there are certain things that feel non negotiable.
Speaker 4:You know, it's funny because it's like a lot of people come to their ADHD diagnosis because their child was diagnosed with ADHD and they're like, okay, hyper focus, how am I going to?
Speaker 2:help them live their best life.
Speaker 4:What am I going to do? We do that for other people. We do that for our children. We don't do that for ourselves. So some of the time it's. You know, it's really kind of deciding what are these non negotiables in my life that are not? Maybe it would be nice if I did this and this is like absolutely this is part of my day. You know, coffee, that's like. It's not like I wake up in the morning and decide maybe I'll have coffee today, like if I don't have coffee.
Speaker 4:I'm you know, it's, it's disaster. So those are these non negotiables where I'm like how was I able to accept, how was I able to integrate that in my life, but not some other things? And so that, I think, is you know, and that that's going to look different for other, for everybody. And the other thing I think is so important is finding other people, finding your community right and finding you know. One of the things I did when I, when I was first diagnosed, was just like I went on a Facebook and I joined every single Facebook or regular, fine and I started listening to podcast.
Speaker 4:You know, I literally the reason why my podcast is called women and ADHD is because I typed women, adhd into my podcast player and I found Tracy out Suica's podcast.
Speaker 4:I listened to like 75 episodes while walking out with my dog every day and so, but just getting that validation and realizing you're not alone, you're not broken, you're not. You know that there are many, many people who are having experiences like yours and there's many ways in which this manifests, and I think just eradicating some of that shame through community and validation is incredibly healing and a huge part of the quote unquote treatment plan for managing ADHD.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, katie, can you, because maybe a great place for people to start who are listening is with you. You know, in terms of just all of your content, the things that you offer. I know that Aaron and I have, I mean, benefited massively from it. Like, well, aaron will show me a post, you know, and it's either hilarious or like just informative and helpful or both all at the same time. I'm like yes, and so can you. Can you please like tell people like the best places to find you in the world?
Speaker 4:Yeah, sure, I mean after I started the podcast which is called Women and ADHD, so you can look for that podcast. That's been around for two years now and I interview other women who were diagnosed, sometimes in adulthood. Sometimes, like you said, they were diagnosed in childhood and it kind of reoccurred to them in adulthood in a very profound way.
Speaker 4:And I also have the URL womenandadhdcom. So if you head to that website, you can find the podcast, you can find I have an online community, a global community of women who come together and you know we found each other and we ask, invent and compare and share resources. And on Instagram I'm at katieweberadhd.
Speaker 3:And also link all of this. Okay, yeah, that's great.
Speaker 4:But I also want to you know, I, from a relationship standpoint, I want to definitely want to recommend the ADHD effect on marriage, which is a book written by Melissa Orlov, and that's actually written. She is a non ADHD wife of an ADHD husband, so for that perspective, I think that's really like the seminal book. And then the other one I always recommend is when an adult you love has ADHD, by Russell Barkley, because Russell Barkley is just amazing. Everything he's written is so good. And and then I also want to recommend the disruptors, which is a documentary that came out earlier this, earlier in 2022. And it's so fantastic, especially if you have kids who have ADHD or families. It looks at all it looks. It's just a really, really thought provoking and thoughtful documentary. Look into what it's like to live with ADHD at every age.
Speaker 3:I have not heard of that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I haven't heard of that one. Where, where?
Speaker 3:can you find that? Where do people?
Speaker 4:it's not on any streaming platforms you do have to buy it from iTunes, but it's, it's just fantastic. Okay, I forced my, you know, because I'm the one who does all the research and reads all the books and does it. And my husband's like well, wing it, it's fine.
Speaker 4:And this was one of those ones where I forced everybody in my family to sit down and watch it with me and I'm so glad I did and he was really, you know he it really changed a lot of his perspective on medication and you know some of the things we've been talking about in terms of like living with, with how, seeing how people with ADHD tend to view themselves.
Speaker 3:Right. I think that would be powerful for someone who loves someone with ADHD to see and to know and to really feel the weight of that because it it can be very weighty. Yeah Well okay, closing up. Is there any final thoughts you have or you know any questions I asked or didn't unfinished? I just mean there were a lot of threads I threw out there, yeah gosh, this was awesome.
Speaker 4:I'm gonna try. Yeah, no, I mean, I guess it's great and I think you know it is genetic. So if your kids been diagnosed. You know that's a really great indicator that you might want to look into it. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's right. I think kind of the research I saw is like if there's one parent with ADHD there's a good chance that one in three like kind of kids and then if the both parents have ADHD it's kind of two and three is kind of what I understand yeah it's like great, great Good luck. Well, at least, at least you all understand each other. Maybe in some way.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. It was really really great getting to talk with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so very helpful. Yeah, really appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:That was just some really really wonderful stuff, I think.
Speaker 3:A lot of really helpful, important nuggets in there for sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, what stuck out to you, erin?
Speaker 3:That's a good question, I think, probably the thing that stands out for me most of all. I'm maybe just feeling a little solution focused right now. I just really like her emphasis, katie talking about shame and how much shame can get us stuck in places like your ADHD brain, but also how that parenting partner dynamic can get stuck in that shame.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's deep. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:And then sort of that. The way out isn't an easy fix.
Speaker 2:Is it more shame? Isn't like get it together Like why are you always failing? Why are you not doing yeah and you?
Speaker 3:know those are understandable feelings about it, but that what helps people actually get their choice back and is compassion. So I think, shame and compassion, I think, will be the lasting things for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah you know, I think that you know, I think that this is a very common dynamic between parenting partners, where maybe one partner is struggling with ADHD, the other isn't, or when both, yeah, or both. That's true, that's true. We've also seen that and I think that what can? Why it's helpful to have a name for maybe what's going on you like a diagnosis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's because I really do think that that then can help partners feel like, hey, how can we team up together to understand ADHD and what's happening, how your brain is working, how my brain is working, and what are the optimal kind of environments and context and strategies for working together to succeed? And I just think it. It offers an opportunity. The explanation, the diagnosis offers an opportunity to collaborate together as partners rather than feel like you're against each other and I think it can really feel that way initially if you don't know. Or even when you do.
Speaker 2:That's true, that's true. It's kind of, especially for maybe the partner who doesn't have ADHD, it just doesn't make sense Like why, why can't you get it together? In a way is maybe what it feels like. But but I think again, the explanation can really kind of help take things out of that personal realm and and and give some hopefully to the, to the partner who maybe discovers the ADHD just some in our own body, yeah, just some freedom to like, oh, like to not be stuck in shame to be like.
Speaker 2:Oh there, like there really is something different going on here and so hopefully you know I think that you know just talking to Katie like it just provides what I think is an opportunity for, for freedom and collaboration, which is going to help couples feel I think more connected yeah exactly Today's show was produced by Aaron and Steven Mitchell.
Speaker 2:If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parent.