Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
My Partner is So Needy!
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Is the preoccupied attachment style really just needy? We examine how childhood experiences shape adult relationships, focusing on preoccupied attachment. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP discuss what preoccupied attachment is, how it impacts a couple relationship, and how partner's can stay connected if one of them is preoccupied.
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell and we are excited to be with you today. Indeed, you know we've talked about this and this is the last time you're going to hear me say this statement. We wrote a book and it is coming out July 9th, which is today, is Friday. We're shooting this on Friday, or recording on Friday, which is Tuesday. Just in a few days, the book will be live. You will be able to buy it. You won't hear me say, hey, pre-order the book anymore. You'll hear me say, buy the book. It's a big deal.
Speaker 3:I've been thinking about it, obviously, and I think something that I don't think we've talked about on here or maybe you have and I haven't, I don't know. I haven't really thought about it but we did an interview for the book recently and someone said you know, this is a really celebrated book and I thought I don't think I have really been absorbing that, but it has been very well received. There have been some authors and speakers and educators and practitioners even who have in advance really praised this book and I think I've been taking that for granted, like, oh yeah, that's just what happens, but I don't think that is just what happens, and so I have decided I want to embrace what other people have already embraced, which is celebrating this book.
Speaker 3:It's a really good book. It's really helpful.
Speaker 2:Well, well, this, this is tough for you because I, you know, not everyone knows Aaron very, very well, knows Erin very, very well, and so you might not know this she doesn't like the upfront, public-facing kind of part of all that we do.
Speaker 3:That feels uncomfortable for you, and so this idea that, hey, you're an author, you wrote a book, let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it, let's celebrate it. You're kind of like I don't know so much I.
Speaker 3:On the other hand, I'm like let's celebrate it, which is funny because in life I, I'm like let's celebrate.
Speaker 2:That's so true.
Speaker 3:But I don't enjoy that spotlight personally. Let's celebrate your birthday and our kids' birthdays and my friend's book release, but not ours.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I'm like I'm okay with being upfront talking about stuff, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think it's not that I don't want to be. I'm trying to embrace that. I like it.
Speaker 2:I maybe that's a very indirect what was an indirect way of saying. I like hearing you say that because it is to be celebrated.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think I would like to just skip over the parts that feel like, oh, this is self-promoting and about us, and people are looking at my face and I don't like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so to my idea. Like I, this book will help you. And I think and I think that the reason I want to talk about it is because, like, this is really going to be useful to you and your partner, like we believe in what we're doing, we believe in what we say, we believe in what we wrote, and I think for me it's just like. You know, people ask us all the time hey, what should we do about this conflict? Hey, how can my partner and I feel more connected?
Speaker 3:Have better communication.
Speaker 2:Have better communication and I'm like it's all right here. Right? This is everything that we would tell anyone about how to do that, and so I mean, this is what we talk to couples about. This is what we talk about on this podcast. This is what we write about. This is what all our workshops are about. It's all right there in this book called Too Tired to Fight which is available to you right now for pre-order if you want to go that route.
Speaker 3:But it will also show up at your house or your place of residence on Tuesday.
Speaker 2:Yes, if you've pre-ordered it, it's on its way. But also, just like when you go to Amazon and you order something, you might get it that day once July 9th rolls around. So, it's there, it's in the world. We're celebrating it.
Speaker 3:And something you may not know about, stephen. When he said this is the last time you'll hear me say this what he meant specifically was the pre-order part.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:He is going to talk about this book forever.
Speaker 2:I will, I will, which is great.
Speaker 3:And as well. Well, you should, but the part, just so there's no confusion. Yeah, it's just the pre-order part. That's the last time we'll say pre-order, because as of next week it will be order yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:Thank you for clarifying that I don't want to confuse anyone out there. Um, yeah, uh, so, um, we are excited about the book. We get to do some traveling um. This next week we have a book launch deal, uh event in st louis.
Speaker 3:Yes, so if you happen to be in the st louis um area on tuesday, july 9th, we have a party at left bank books on the loop. In that where it is yes, it's in the loop, not on the loop, but oh sorry, I'm not from there.
Speaker 3:I do not come from st louis it is also on the loop, I suppose, but it is in the loop, which is a street, an area in st louis, and we will be there at 6 pm on tuesday, july 9th, and then here in denver. If you're in the denver area, we would love to see you july 15th at tattered cover bookstore on colf, colfax See, now that one really is on Colfax, because that's a street Join us. We are going to share a little bit about the book, we're going to have time for Q&A and then we'll sign copies and just hang out. I think it'll be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Really good time. We would love to meet you. Come on out. Yes, yes, we would love to meet you. Come on out.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and so for today's episode. Last week we did an episode on interacting with a partner who is avoidantly or dismissively attached attachment theory, which is a very not revolutionary amazing theory about how we as human beings relate and build bonds of connection and love with friends, partners, caregivers, and it was a theory introduced by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth and then further supported and verified through all the neuroscience, particularly a field of neuroscience called interpersonal neurobiology. That has been just sort of proliferating pop psychology and psychology for many years now. But today what we wanted to do is talk about another attachment pattern or style that has been referred to in many different ways.
Speaker 3:One is the- None of them are great, right? I mean just to be clear. We said it last week about the avoidant and dismissive no one wants to be like I'm avoidant and dismissive. These are not better.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:I think they might be worse.
Speaker 2:So the categories are preoccupied. Attachment I think that's the childhood name for it. The adult version of it is the anxious, ambivalent, I believe. And then also we really like to refer to this attachment style using the terminology that Stan Tatkin and his co-author I believe her last name is Solomon use in their book Love and War, which is the angry, resistant attachment pattern. So, super, super positive, super positive, thrilling, super positive um thrilling also. I'd like to just disclose for aaron um that this uh kind of matches her attachment pattern, correct correct.
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, so isn't a disclosure.
Speaker 3:Well, it's not the first time, I guess. Right, I know we have discussed this.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I, I was. I'm the avoidant dismissive type. But, aaron, if someone asks you, hey, what is the angry resistant attachment pattern style, what would you say? I'm asking you because whenever I describe it, I can't stand it. Yeah, you're like, that's not it.
Speaker 3:No, I know, but just recently we were actually with some friends of ours and um steven did describe it. They were asking about this and um steven finished it and I was like, just so you know. The one partner was like oh, I think I identify with that and I was like that's not the best way to describe it and this guy was like that's, that's pretty much how it feels for me, I haven't, I've got no complaints. So I think, um, as is true with anything, right like's not like a.
Speaker 3:This is the one way that this fits or looks. So after I describe it, I think you should describe how you would describe it yeah. Because I do think there's something very different about feeling this way inside and feeling loved by someone this way, that's right.
Speaker 3:So I think it's important. Loved by someone this way, that's right. So I think it's important. So the way I do like I mean as much as I don't like the words angry, resistant. I think those sounds just negative and extra negative, but it's not entirely untrue to how it feels. I think so. I think the way that I would describe this is in stressed times. Certainly not all the time, but this can happen for me. I think this happens for a lot of people out there where I feel like I have been trying to ask for the connection I'm looking for.
Speaker 2:Because in stressed times connection feels important. What is the thing that connection helps with when you're in that stress time?
Speaker 3:So I think connection helps, period, right. I think there are people who seek connection. That is an important part of how we are made. I think, in stress, my feeling is, I mean I can't think of. We'll just take it back to the beginning of our parenthood journey where I would say this is really hard, like sit with me, talk with me, let's take a walk, hold my hand, like actually, let's have some proximity, let's talk about this or like whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I think your response to that was yeah, it's tough, we got to get through it. And I'm like, wait a minute, though, I don't want to just make it through this. I'd like to feel like we made it through this, not just like you dragged me along and now I'm sort of trying to catch up at the finish line and we're like showing up all relationship broken. We've had totally different experiences.
Speaker 2:We've had totally different experiences, Because that feeling of the actual physical proximity, I think also communicates an emotional reality which is I'm here with you, I'm hearing you, I'm wanting to understand your experience. My physical presence of being here communicates that I. I want to connect in here.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think some of it. I actually think more of what you said, that it means matters more than the actual physical proximity because how many? Times has someone been like you know you're, I'm trying to hug you. I'm like, hey, can we have a hug and you like sort of stand there tense and rigid Sure, I'll give you a hug, right, are you? Finished Like ew.
Speaker 2:So no, I don't think we don't have bad hugs like that all the time, everybody just occasionally. We had one this morning we did, I was doing stuff, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:So, um, yes, I think to your point that in the in the stress times times, I'm like let's not just make it through, let's make it through together. Yeah, I want to feel like we're teammates in this and that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. But the more I begin to feel like you say no, or the more I begin to say that and you get more rigid, we'll just use the hug as an example, or you're like I feel you look at your watch while we're hugging right that happens too.
Speaker 3:I get more and more and more frustrated. Those, those moments of me feeling like you you not only don't want it, but that it's a burden to you, stack up and I get angry. I may not say it the first time. I may be like, oh yeah, he's stressed, he's got something to do. I may, I may cognitively sort of like know that, but I'm cataloging it.
Speaker 3:Not on purpose, but I do. And then, um, our one kid told me once that he feels like I'm very patient three times, but on the fourth time I'm like forget it, Nope. Um, and that's probably true with you as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, three times, I might get two and a half.
Speaker 3:It's fine, you're lucky. No. I'm like, okay, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Of course, this is stressful for Steven too, I know that he needs to get stuff done to feel, and then it's no. Like Steven, I've been asking for you to like pay attention, check in. We've got tough stuff happening. I'm stressed too. I'm being patient with you, You're not being patient with me and I'm angry, and that activates that like I no longer want and need, and ever will again want, to connect with you. I'm a sufficient person. I'm a self-sufficient person. I can take care of problems. You know I was doing all this stuff before I ever met you. I don't need you either, Just like you don't need me, which is all true, yeah. And then it is an like an iron gate that shuts down.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And in, for all intents and purposes, you are dead to me.
Speaker 2:And then you notice that and that makes me very, very anxious. And then I start pursuing Like, oh, you're right, you're right, you're right.
Speaker 3:You're right, you're right. And then clicks in the resistant part. Like I wasn't kidding, I did offer you.
Speaker 2:Too late buddy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was kind two and a half times. I was patient. I told you I was frustrated. I told you what I needed. You kept saying no, yep, no, it's a no for me. I won't be set up for that again. And now I think people can be hearing this one of two ways, or probably more, but at least two obvious ways. One I think there's a lot of people out there like me that are like yeah, why would you keep opening yourself up to being shut down and rejected over and over and over and left abandoned waiting for connection? I see you, I hear you, I hear you, I feel you. Then I think there are the other people that are like oh my gosh, that's a lot.
Speaker 2:Or that's a pretty tight margin. Yeah, two and a half times is tight, not that many times, mm-hmm. Yes, and so it's like whoa that's intense, that's too tight, or that's intense, that's too. Or that sounds extreme, that sounds.
Speaker 3:I think extreme is a good word. Intense and extreme, I think, is what?
Speaker 2:Or reactive, or overreacting, those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:That, I think, is exactly what it feels like.
Speaker 2:To me that's too much. Well and so I I'm just let's cool it down, and I think probably the way you hear this is very much based on your experience yeah of your own attachment and because, if you are a person who is trying to reduce intensity, like we talked about last time, like in that avoidant Well, in the way that you reduce intensity and that dismissive, avoidant pattern is, you disengage from other people and you focus on things and tasks and controlling your external environment. And so, if you notice, To feel less stress.
Speaker 3:Like to feel less, like to feel less stressed, right.
Speaker 2:So so let's take this morning. So I'm getting ready for work this morning Cause I have an appointment. Aaron had a um. I had a appointment at nine. Aaron had an appointment at 10. So she had some more time. I'm sitting there, uh, getting ready.
Speaker 2:Aaron, like wants to a very normal, reasonable thing, which is greet one another in the morning, express that we're happy to see each other, and part of that she wants to communicate that through. Like hey, good morning, let's have a hug, which, honestly, that is very reasonable. That's actually very nice. It's nice that Aaron wants to hug me in the morning.
Speaker 2:But I'm feeling stressed, right, like, oh, my, my time, you know? Like, how long is this? Like I don't want to be late, what, whatever it might be, I'm focusing on soothing my stress, and the way I do that is look, I don't have time for you. I need to complete these tasks, this bid for engagement and connection that you're expressing, which is not that you were stressed this morning, but you were wanting, like you know, it's nice, it's soothing, it's it's connective, it helps you feel good about the day and our relationship, like all those things are reasonable. That, in my economy, is too much. Go away, don't. Don't ask for that, or fine, okay, I'll hug you and I'll look at my watch. Now, if you, if you think about that, that can feel very and dismissive, which is my attachment pattern, which is I'm dismissing the connection to help soothe my anxiety and stress.
Speaker 3:Feel true, oh yeah, and so if you, I think that I know we talked about this last time. We're trying to stay on track, but I do think it's worth noting, at least in this moment I'll try to be brief that also my wanting a hug in that moment, I think, feels like a miss for you as well. Right, like exactly.
Speaker 2:Like a total misunderstanding of me, my situation, what stresses me out and in some ways feels like a setup, Like so I'm going to come to you in a stress place and I'm going to ask you me yeah. Like you, aaron is like I'm going to ask you for a connection in. Yeah, like you, aaron is like I'm gonna ask you for a connection in a moment that I know is going to be really hard for you to give it. You're not going to give it.
Speaker 3:That way I'll be angry with you and I can tell you how you failed me and you never want to connect with me, and this isn't your fault right now notice.
Speaker 2:So we are okay about this interaction that we had this morning, because this has been our whole relationship. We have navigated these patterns again and again and again in numerous situations and, I think, found language to talk about them so that actually what happens is we both become stronger, more secure as human beings and in our connection, in our relationship. Our ability to actually be able to talk about this is a reflection of being more connected.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the language that people use for this is earned security. It is the language that people where we are not like so polarized in these attachments anymore. It's more like much more in the middle. There's much more in the middle. There's much more balance. Also, I think the reason that we are fine talking about this today because it didn't get, it didn't throw us off kilter, is because it wasn't a stressed interaction.
Speaker 2:True? I think yeah, yes.
Speaker 3:I think all you have to do is add onto it the buzz of a morning or any number of things Financial stress or physical discomfort, or work stress or parenting stress or any kind of-.
Speaker 3:I actually slept beautifully last night, which is the first time in about a week, so I was not tired. I didn't feel like any of our kids woke me to get water or go to the bathroom or whatever. That actually doesn't happen much these days anymore, which is sad now that I say it out loud. But there wasn't. I didn't feel over. I didn't wake up, feeling already at a deficit of. I've been parenting all night while you've been sleeping and now you are continuing to be stressed about your day.
Speaker 2:Sure Stephen. Yes, let's have a Stephen centric morning after a Stephen centric night after a you know like that can be the stack up.
Speaker 3:Blend.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, I think you're exactly right. Like the, these interactions become problematic or become charged when the level of stress is more intense, which, to be quite honest, like parenting, life can be really stressful, and this is where these patterns kind of blow up. And I think that, yes, we weren't in a stressed interaction this morning, but also we did acknowledge it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think sorry, yes, 100%. And I think the real place when you just said this, like how this blows up, so how this blows up for the person like me is it's not, I think, how you, stephen, I wonder if you'll agree with this like how this blows up for the person who avoidant, the avoidantly dismissive attached partner is a real sense of withdrawal and like I'm in this on my own and I just got to like keep going.
Speaker 2:I'm not understood. It's all up to me. Yeah, and just like as always I'm my best resource Nobody you know and plow ahead.
Speaker 3:Right. I think how this is experienced and how we hear it over and over and, over and over and over, and certainly how I felt it myself at times, is I'm never going to be loved like I I think I deserve. You will never be able to love me like I want, and and by love, I think you can insert a lot of words. It's really story dependent on that, what kind of history you have.
Speaker 3:But like you're never going to know me, like I wish like you're never going to understand me, like I'd hoped you are never going to really feel the intensity or the depths of the emotions that I have and want to express and share with you. It's never going to happen. Or simply like I just I just kind of thought you'd you'd be excited about me.
Speaker 2:You'd want me.
Speaker 3:You'd choose me. You'd you know that I'd wake up and you'd be happy to see me too. And then you I wouldn't wake up, because truly I mean. This morning is a perfect example of this. Usually you have that whole hour by yourself before a session, but this was an hour later session, so, like I, I woke up for it and um I I I know that already you're like, this is my hour you're not supposed to be here yet I'm happy to see you, but I'm not ready, and I think that the person like me, this more preoccupied attachment, this angry resistant, can be like oh, you don't, you're not happy to see me, it's me and so I think.
Speaker 2:So how you know, how do couples interact around this? I think, first of all, like it's understanding.
Speaker 3:Do you mean?
Speaker 2:what's the path forward?
Speaker 3:Or like what's the continuation of how the negative interactions feels?
Speaker 2:Oh no, what's the path forward?
Speaker 3:How do we fix what's broken? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know, obviously it's first of all understanding like who you are, like, like where do you fall in this attachment, um kind of world? And I think that it's understanding that. And then it's having the language to be able to talk about it freely and openly. So you know, it might feel a little exhausting to tease apart a interaction with your partner over a hug in the morning.
Speaker 3:And by it might I mean come on. Well, we wrote a book called Too Tired to Fight for a reason. Who wants? To have that conversation, Especially when it's going to be like your fault, your fault, your fault, your fault. Called too tired to fight for a reason Like who wants to have that conversation, especially when it's going to be like your fault, your fault, your fault, your fault, Like yeah.
Speaker 2:Or, and, and so I think that, um, it kind of goes a little bit like this you do have to spend some time up front knowing how your attachment patterns influence all these little micro interactions in a day. But once you have that conversation up front and I think you can have that conversation in several ways you can talk with someone who can help you and your partner do that. You can educate yourself on what is attachment and what does that look like? I think another way to do it.
Speaker 3:And to be very clear about that, I think the how it came to be.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Because I didn't choose to want to react like this. Neither did Steven. But when you look back and you sort of play it forward, it's very clear to me how it how it happened, and I don't even blame me for it. I'm like, yeah, good for you, well done, right, and so that was smart.
Speaker 2:And again this is going to sound like a uh, a shameless plug in some ways. In some ways, it is like our book can help you with that, Our membership can help you with that. We can help you with that Like this is like working with yes, this is what we do.
Speaker 2:We. We have um plenty of workshops that actually walk couples through this very specifically. I think, specifically, we have um something called the timeline exercise and our empathy exercise and our attachment workshop. I think those three things could be really useful. I think the book can be really useful, but I think, like, first you have to figure out the language of how you can understand these little micro interactions. Then, I think, you have to understand what the other, what your partner's attachment pattern and style, is asking for and how you, as a partner, can show love to your partner in the way that matches that need. This is what I mean.
Speaker 2:I think a couple of years ago, I mean, aaron and I had had a, you know, a more charged and difficult conversation about these patterns than we did this morning, and for me, one of the things that I realized is that it's exactly what you were saying, aaron, that when you are looking for that connection, you understandably and very reasonably are just looking for me to say you're important, you're valuable, I care. What matters to you matters to me. I want to know when you say, like, hey, can we have a hug this morning? Like you just are wanting me to communicate. You're special, I care, I am excited, I'm interested, I'm curious and I think For me and my attachment, I think oftentimes the avoidantly attached partner hears and experiences those ask for connection as control.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Someone's trying to control me and I think that that's because of my story, where there was a lot of rigidity and a lot of control and a lot of intrusiveness.
Speaker 3:I think the other way and I think this might be saying it the same way, but this is something I hear from the couples we work with a lot and less from you, frankly, but I think it's kind of two sides of the same coin is need Like that. I want you to sacrifice yourself because I need you.
Speaker 2:Yep, that's the intrusiveness, I think.
Speaker 3:Forget that you are stressed and trying to get to your session on time.
Speaker 2:Right, I need a hug.
Speaker 3:I need a hug and you need to make me feel important, and that which I do think is controlled, of course, yes, but it's so. You want me to want you, but you don't want me, you need me.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And that feels terrible.
Speaker 2:And that is deep To both people, right, right, certainly, and that is deeply rooted in my attachment, experiences and story. That is not about Aaron and I think that that's what I have to Even though our relationship can perpetuate those narratives.
Speaker 3:Sure, it can feel like that, but I think it can even be true, but that's not where it started, right.
Speaker 2:And so I think one of the fundamental or really altering mindset shifts for me is that connection from Aaron, her desire for connection, is not about control, and I think that that and vice versa, because I very much feel like you say yeah, well, that's what I was going to say. Like what would your? So for me that is a fundamental phrase, a fundamental like mindset shift that I think is really important for that avoidantly, dismissively attached person to understand that the desire for connection which I think sometimes does feel like your neediness or whatever.
Speaker 3:Oh, a hundred percent. That is how it's expressed. All the time, like you're this bottomless pit of hold me, hug me, help me do it.
Speaker 2:That is not about control, and I think that that helps me connect to your attachment needs differently. It helps me understand you are not my caregivers, you are not trying to repeat negative attachment experiences that I've had. This is something different and that I I want to meet you there, right, and so I'm curious, like if there's a converse for you.
Speaker 3:I think it's almost the exact same. So I think that people in my situation can feel very controlled by the avoidant, Like okay, so I'm not allowed to ask for a hug the first moment we see each other. No, don't like. Hey, I see you're working, you keep you do. Okay, yeah, and when Steven's ready, then we're allowed to connect on Steven's timeline and Steven's world. When Steven has accomplished his entire to-do list, when all tasks are complete, then Steven will remember he married a person and is hoping to connect with.
Speaker 3:But I think two things are true. One, that avoidantly attached person from the perspective of the more preoccupied my seat never will finish their tasks correct. So, um and honestly, and if we're talking about, like you know, staying in a stressed state, like if they aren't trying to come back to a regulated state, they really won't right that to-do list is actually endless I can be infinitely stressed yes, if, if you are not aware of that and working towards that earned security, even just for yourself.
Speaker 3:So they're not wrong. The people in my seat are not wrong that that to-do list is endless. Um, but I think it's. I think the opposite feeling is also control, that I sit here and think, okay, so I just have to. Okay, I'm not allowed to be patient just two and a half times. It has to be five times oh no not five times, 25 times, nope, nope, and it's like that feeling of I will just feel desperate until you decide to remember to pay attention to me and that is really gross.
Speaker 3:And so I think the the feeling is I and this is the part where I'm like I don't, I don't, I do understand why that resistance clicks in because, why would anyone just walking around, especially because the the way I got to be this way is. That's a familiar and known story for me from my attachment figures. Um, so yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a timeline to that and I refuse to feel controlled by you and there will be a time where, no, I don't, I don't actually want or need you anymore.
Speaker 3:I'm tired of wanting you and and I don't anymore conversation over and, and that happens in small ways but, the more often. Right, like anything. I'm sure it's a natural conclusion. It it happens. Pretty big, it it little, those little like no, nope, like I'm just not going to need, I'm not going to want that anymore.
Speaker 2:It persists yeah, you've said it can feel like a thousand cuts or like absolutely Just by a thousand again and again and again, and that boils over.
Speaker 3:And to like no, I really am done here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right With you, with all of it, with you know.
Speaker 3:yeah, I'm tired of feeling like this, I and and I shouldn't have to Right Right, so I think it's a really intense so what's a counter to like?
Speaker 2:so yes, that happens. That's the hard place but like how it sounds broken. Yeah Well, yeah, like, how do you talk to that place? Yeah, like, if I sit there and say, like connection is not control and maybe it's not so clear cut, like that's how I think that that's that kind of stuff is really useful, yep, and maybe it's not so clear cut Like I, that's how I like, that's how I think that that's that kind of stuff is really useful to me, like very, something simple and yeah Well, so I think, sorry go ahead, yeah, so I don't know if what that would look like for you, if anything.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's the same thing. It's, it's's. So we'll go back to the hug. Um, steven's stressed he's not trying this. This has literally nothing to do with me, steven's stressed, and my comment doesn't have to be like cool, so we don't hug right or you don't want to hug me, yeah, or even this internal, like that's okay, I'll hug steven when he comes out of his session. I can be like you're stressed this morning or like you've you've got a timeline like I'm really looking forward to steven.
Speaker 3:I actually do have a date tonight, which is very exciting in the world of the mitchells big time. But like I am looking forward to our date, I hope we have a chance to check in before that. That will feel pretty pressurized of the first time we've actually talked is in this sure um, but it doesn't that every it doesn't have to mean so much right yeah, these little interactions can be little interactions like oh, steven does love me, he's stressed, his stress is winning right now.
Speaker 3:My stress doesn't then have to win back. I don't have to to say well, this means something. Then I can say oh, I, just I Well.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, I think, before I forget, because I think one of the things at least I've heard you do or express to me is that, yes, that graciousness, that generosity to me, that Steven is stressed, he's not trying to control me, is really kind. I think also, at least one of the things that I also really appreciate is when I think there's another party that says but that doesn't mean I can't say what I need or what I want, like in this moment you don't have to take responsibility. Like you were saying like that, oh, I just shouldn't, you know, want that. Or like you don't have to make all these adjustments to work around me. You can say I see that you're stressed, I get that you're not trying to control me. And also, like I want to hug, and you know what, I'm disappointed, I didn't get one, or that this didn't go the way I wanted. But like the moment is there, like it doesn't um, it doesn't have to add, add up to something bigger. And I think one of the things that helps is if I'm like you're right.
Speaker 2:You're you're. You're absolutely right. I I missed it. I'm glad you said that yes.
Speaker 3:Because what you're describing, I think, is a balanced place. So where this breaks is when we polarize each other further, when my ask for a hug makes you feel very disrespected, because I can't see how stressed you are. And so you get even more withdrawn and even more shut down to me or mean even, or say something mean or condescending.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course you'd need a hug whatever.
Speaker 3:So that you get further which will only push the me me's of this world, this angry, resistant, even further into bigger anger or into bigger resistance like you know, you're right, I forgot you're a robot who doesn't appreciate hugs bigger into. Like you're right, I have no emotions, that's right, you know whatever. But but suddenly we are now very far apart when really it's just like okay, you're too stressed. I see, well, I'll be out of my session at whatever time. Hopefully we can reconnect whatever the, whatever the naming of it is, and they're like oh yeah, it's three seconds. I, yeah, my stress one, this is not a big ask.
Speaker 3:Yes, where it's a mutually respected. Because I think where I think a lot of times especially this anger resistant person feels is put into this polarized it's all or nothing, always, never, you never want to connect, I always have to pursue. It's all on me If I want any sort of a relationship where we relationship, where we share. It's on me, cause you're never going to do that, you're dead inside it. It that doesn't. That doesn't actually make it feel um welcoming to either partner, right. But also I think the anger resistant person here is like you just have to accept your avoidantly attached partner as who they are and that's.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't say that I think you can expect one another to grow and change. I need that generosity and graciousness from you and also the firmness for you to say but I'm still going to ask for what I want and it's reasonable for me to expect that you would meet me there, and I'm I think.
Speaker 3:to be honest, I think, though and it's not just because, um, for for me, I don't want the work to still have to be on me. Sure, so like, what I really want is for for me to walk out in the morning and for you to initiate, so I don't even have to feel like the person who has to do that and that's.
Speaker 3:I think that's what the, the mutuality ask is here. Like you move towards middle. I move towards middle because I think the the avoidantly attached person, I mean we have had this conversation where you're like, yeah, but Aaron, I think you would sit around and hug all day. I'm like what do you? Who do you think I am? Um?
Speaker 2:but, no.
Speaker 3:So it's like oh, you can see like if you move in for a hug, I still want to go get you know my coffee and move on with my day.
Speaker 3:I'm not looking for your whole morning. And so it's like oh, this really was a three second ask. Yeah, I can initiate that and then we just move along with our day. But that balanced place of if you come towards me, I will not consume you. That balanced place of if you come towards me, I will not consume you and me if I step towards you or hold and wait and don't continue the press, you will move towards me.
Speaker 2:I think that's very, very, very well said. I think that in your relationship, who are you in terms of your attachment style, your attachment pattern, how does it impact the micro moments of your experience? And then what does it look like for you as partners to move towards one another in that middle, balanced kind of way?
Speaker 3:I have to say.
Speaker 2:Go ahead yeah.
Speaker 3:You said the micro moments. I think that most couples have a macro moment too.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Like where it can be all like I think of our engagement or our middle kid's birth or like. There are these moments where it did win in a very huge, profound, almost like attachment breaking, not like on a micro level, but like things were almost really bad way, and I think a lot of couples have that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and that's why parenting is so tough, because oftentimes, I would say, when parenting partners have challenges, it's because there has been a big break in the macro moment of having kids, whether it's pregnancy, whether it's birth, whether it's because there has been a big break in the macro moment of having kids, yeah, whether it's pregnancy, whether it's birth, whether it's postpartum, you know postpartum, you know the next 12, 18 months or when they have the second kid.
Speaker 3:Or an interaction with a kid, yeah, or an interaction with, because if I see you behave with our kid in a dismissive way, no.
Speaker 2:Or interactions around grandparents and moms. These are big moments. So that's a whole um. That's a whole nother topic that actually we've talked about quite a bit um in other podcasts, but I think you're.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's these micro interactions, but in the macro, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so um again, um. Who are you and your partner in terms of your attachment styles?
Speaker 3:They don't have to work against each other. They really can work towards balance.
Speaker 2:Yes, today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it, and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.