Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
My partner keeps telling me I need to talk about my emotions, why does it matter?
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Does talking about emotions matter? We see so many couples were one partner's primary complaint is that their partner cannot talk about how they feel. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP discuss whether talking about emotions matters and what couples can do to resolve this conflict.
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell.
Speaker 3:I'm Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:And everyone. The moment that you've all been waiting for has happened Our book is no longer available for pre-order. It's just available to order.
Speaker 3:I think we've said this once already, right.
Speaker 2:I don't think it had happened yet.
Speaker 3:Okay, or maybe it was the last time.
Speaker 2:This is the last time, yeah, now if I did say it already, I'm saying it again but yes, go, you know wherever you get your books. Go there, go to Amazon, go to Target, go to Barnes and Noble, go to books a million, go to Powell's, go to Hudson's, wherever you get your book type in. Too tired to fight and you will see our book appear magically before you. You can order it. And also, many of you have asked is this book available as an audiobook?
Speaker 3:erin is it yes in the united states and canada so far?
Speaker 2:yes, it is, and guess who who's reading it? It's us it's us, it's us and for paid actors our lovely, lovely voices coming through to you. Um, also, we've had a lot of people go ahead.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say and, and some of you probably already have purchased the book, and for that we thank you. And if you would leave a review for other people to know your thoughts and how you experienced the book. That would be very helpful.
Speaker 2:Amazon.
Speaker 3:Good people to know your thoughts and how you experienced the book. That would be very helpful. Amazon good reads. Many of you have already and have left them publicly. We've also heard some messages privately and it means a lot. We worked really hard on this.
Speaker 1:We think it's really good.
Speaker 3:We've had great feedback and I don't think I'm ever in my whole life going to get tired of hearing it. So we would love to hear from you how reading this book was for you, and if you read it alone, if you and your partner read it together, all the possible ways. We were just loving hearing the stories of this book in your world.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you very much for getting the book, if you've gotten it. Also, if you're in Australia, we've had quite a few people who follow us in Australia asking like hey, is a book available in Australia? And the answer sadly is not yet. But if there's anyone out there in Australia who knows a publisher, have them reach out to us. We would be happy. We would be happy to talk to that publisher and get the rights for the book available in Australia. But it's been quite a whirlwind these last couple of weeks. Kind of getting back at it here into the podcast. Something that I have been thinking about that I thought we could talk about is this idea that we hear a lot of times from couples is that there's one partner who's kind of identified as the non-emotional partner and another partner who is identified as the really emotional partner, and oftentimes there's this dynamic where the identified emotional partner is trying to get the identified or designated non-emotional partner to share and to talk more about their emotions.
Speaker 3:I also think this is a storied based thing where for a lot of say, these emotional partners, they have this history of either being identified as too emotional or there's any component. I mean, I think I can even think of some people in my life who have been identified as not particularly emotional, doing a ton of work and now, like I, have like all this emotional access. So I think it doesn't have to be like one particular name for that, but I do think it's very rooted. People have a lot of personal story impact. It matters.
Speaker 2:Now what we do with our emotions and how we express our emotions, the level of comfort that we have with emotions, the level of discomfort. That is what you're talking about a very story-based idea. Yes, our stories tell us what to do with our emotions. So we might be in a setting where people talked about their emotions, so we feel comfortable talking about our emotions. We might be in a setting where no one did, and so we don't feel comfortable talking about our emotions. Those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it's worth saying too. I think a lot of people, myself included, grew up in homes where certain emotions were talked about and quote unquote allowed and others weren't. So I think there's most of us have emotions we're more comfortable with and certain emotions we're less comfortable with not only feeling, but certainly expressing.
Speaker 2:True, very, very true. And so then? So I was thinking about all of this and, and you know, all this talk about emotions, and there's the non-emotional person, there's the you know, very emotional person, and then I asked myself the question like what all this talk about emotions? Why? Why is that even important to begin with?
Speaker 3:Okay, I love that question, cause that's exactly what I was thinking too. How often are we sitting with a couple when this comes up and it's like, why, why?
Speaker 2:Right. What does it matter?
Speaker 3:Like what good is it going to?
Speaker 2:do Right Right.
Speaker 3:Why do we need to just like go around feeling all the? Time and not that people want to be shut off.
Speaker 2:Would you say that's predominantly from the non-emotional partner kind of the identified non-emotional partner?
Speaker 3:Sure, yes, but to be clear, I would say it's also from the identified very emotional partner which is like I don't, it's not like I, just love this.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Yes, partner, which is like I don't, it's not like I just love this, right, yes, but no, I think, to your point. I do think typically the less expressive person is saying we can't all just go around, and what good would that do our family? What good would?
Speaker 1:that do our relationship.
Speaker 3:What good would that do me in terms of my function? It's not that I I mean people get really bent out of shape. You too, I've called you emotionless.
Speaker 2:So you know, shocker, I'm sort of identified as the non-emotional person in our relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think, well one. I think we would not use that language anymore. I would not.
Speaker 2:But you know, if we're keeping with the example here, Um, I and I think what, what the distinctive factor in this is because I think why this doesn't go super great is the conversation about this Like. So you're, we're sitting there and there's like one part like why do we need to talk about all these emotions? Is because that individual, the non-emotional person, feels like they are being identified as the problem and they feel like there's this tug of war where it's like you need to be more emotional, like me, you need to be. And then the partner, who's identified as the emotional partner, oftentimes maybe has this sense of like oh, I can talk about my emotions, I'm comfortable with emotions, my partner isn't, and you're both in a little.
Speaker 3:You're in a tug of war in that scenario, I think that person also feels like they're targeted as the problem.
Speaker 2:Right, because you're so emotional.
Speaker 3:Oh, you're so emotional, like if you could just calm down and you know why would we both want to go around being as stressed out as you are all the time, and if there's something people love to hear, is if you tell them they should just calm down. Well, just like you know.
Speaker 2:What else people love to hear is you're a robot and don't have feelings.
Speaker 3:People love that. That's right so. So I think that's why we're saying these labels of non-emotional, overly emotional, aren't not only aren't true, they're not kind it's yeah, it doesn't feel good, yeah, and it perpetuates the dynamic where we're polarizing each other and what we're saying is everyone has emotions and we express them differently and I think that they are reflection that both partners what they the labels yes, the labels that both partners probably have the same capacity to actually think about and talk about their emotions.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I think that that yes. So how this? What's the tagline? Why? How they work, why they don't and what you can do to fix it.
Speaker 2:Yes, what, what? What's the name of this podcast? How they work? Am I on it? What's my name?
Speaker 3:How they work right. It would be that not only would a partner in a couple relationship be able to acknowledge that they're having some sort of an emotion, so there would be something happening in your body Like you'd feel it somewhere, and you would be able to say, oh, I know what that is. I'm feeling sad, I'm angry. And I'm angry because that really hurt my feelings, that that situation perpetuates this narrative that I'm all alone in this and whatever we, whatever your, whatever it is. And you would be able to express that like hey, can we talk about this?
Speaker 3:Like that situation that just happened. That really is rubbing me the wrong way and I'm angry. And then I would be able to explain why and where that's coming from and what that feels like, and then you would be able to engage back with that.
Speaker 2:Doing the same thing. Okay, right, and then?
Speaker 3:we would feel like we were able to discuss the emotions feel felt in them, repair and call that resolved, not that it's never going to come back up.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But that's repaired.
Speaker 2:Right, yes, we would both be able to access and describe our emotions and feel understood in them.
Speaker 3:Correct why they don't work is those are learned skills.
Speaker 2:Exactly. But well, I think you could say even more simply why that doesn't work is because many of us are disconnected from our emotions, from our emotional experience, and that is a learned skill to be disconnected.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:To be connected is a learned skill, but many of us have learned the skill of disconnection from our emotions. So, just like we were saying, like some of us say, like you know, maybe we grew up in a home where anger was okay but sadness wasn't. Or we grew up in a home where, yeah, we talked about our emotions and then, and in someone else's home, they didn't like we're learning different levels of connection or disconnection from our emotions.
Speaker 3:Correct and so when unintentionally, I can't tell you how often we have this and people are like oh no, I mean, I don't mean to do that, Of course not yeah. It's. It's learned by being modeled. It's learned by trying out like oh, I was sad about this. No, you know well, and there's not.
Speaker 2:This isn't about judging anyone's upbringing either anyone's family, like we, we all. This happens because I think there's emotions can feel intense, and emotions, um, like anger, sadness, even joy, like for us to be able to feel these emotions does stress our systems, and I don't mean stress in a in like a negative way, like they're bad emotions, but it just simply stresses our nervous system and that can be uncomfortable. And, to your point, if we don't have the skills and being able to rebalance our nervous system, emotions can become pretty pretty scary things, and so we check out and don't connect.
Speaker 3:People do a lot of things. I think there's the checkout, there's well, there's the fight flight freeze fawn. So people try to please like oh, no, no, no, no, oh, I'm so sorry, like no, I wasn't, or you know what, and it's actually your fault, or whatever. We do a lot of things. Withdraw, I think, is your favorite go-to.
Speaker 2:Love it. I love withdraw. It's wonderful.
Speaker 3:I mean yes and then, but I think we have different versions of expressing those things or not expressing those things, as the case may be. The other point, and I think now we're're starting to it's getting a little heady. Um, this is primarily what our book is about. Would you say? Yeah, like the walking through how to do this?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, that part of like how to connect to your emotions and talk with your partner about them so you can feel heard, felt, understood, resolved and repaired, because even if you were able to do this before kids, it's harder with them.
Speaker 3:Our capacity is diminished, our stress is increased. It's different, it's very different. So it's a new, it's learning, a new skill set.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:So, and then I think so how to fix what's broken then?
Speaker 2:I think so, how to fix what's broken. So I think that. So, thinking about this, so there's this level of learned, the skill of learned disconnection that we have, and what we're trying to do is learn the skill of how to connect to our emotions, and I think that one of the key features of how we connect to our emotions is we have to know the stories that inform the emotion. When we are feeling something, there is a story that it is related to.
Speaker 3:Could you give an example?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that if I am feeling alone, one of the stories, that that feeling of loneliness, why I don't like it or why I might want to move away from it, is connected to when I was in elementary school. In second grade we moved from the school that I loved to a new town and to a new school and I didn't have a friend in the world. I was really shy kid, really introverted kids. I don't really know how to talk to people and make friends and I was nervous and I spent what, nothing, what.
Speaker 3:Introverted people know how to talk.
Speaker 2:No, no. Well, no, no, no. Yes, I didn't say that I didn't know how to talk because I was introverted, it's just I was hesitant, I was shy, it was difficult, not because I didn't know how to talk Introverts out there. I'm not saying you don't know how to talk. I believe in you, I know you can, um, and so I. I was a kid who was really lonely, didn't have any friends, and I really felt that intensely. Every day when we went outside for recess I didn't have anyone to play with. I didn't have anyone who said like hey, steven, you want to do this.
Speaker 2:And I didn't really have the courage to go up to someone and be like hey would you like to play or hang out, and so I would just sit on the playground and the kind of corner of a playground.
Speaker 2:Well, actually, what it was is if you've ever seen the seen these big cement drainage pipes that they, you know, big construction grade drainage pipes.
Speaker 2:They had one of those on our playground and I would just go into that drainage pipe and I would sit there and I would read Hardy Boys books and I did that every day for a year on the playground and just felt absolutely and utterly alone.
Speaker 2:So when I feel loneliness, even as an adult, when I feel loneliness, even as an adult, that's not the only story that that emotion is connected to, but it's definitely one of the stories that that emotion is connected to and one of the reasons why loneliness is very uncomfortable for me. But if I don't know that, if I don't know that that story is related to that emotion of loneliness, what I will do is I will begin to feel something, I'll feel lonely, I'll feel it intensely, I won't know why, and I'll just try to get rid of it. And that's the thing, the way to quote unquote get rid of emotions, which we're not really ever trying to do, we're just trying to balance them and regulate our emotions. The way to do that is to know the story it's connected to, so that then you know why it's happening.
Speaker 3:I think so many things are important about that Um, or things come up for me. It's important because it's your story, so I don't. Yes, there's I'm. I can explain to you why that's important.
Speaker 2:No, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:But um so one of the things that springs to mind as you say that is it feels really important to me to say there's not a one thread back from loneliness to that one story and if you can't access it, then you're going to miss it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:There's so many opportunities. That is one.
Speaker 2:There's so many experiences of loneliness in my life, but the reality is.
Speaker 3:Is that's true for?
Speaker 2:everyone.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:And I think that this is where a lot of people get stuck, Like who would want to feel lonely.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Why would you go back and harp on that Live in the past?
Speaker 3:It's going to drag you down, it's not. That's not a comfortable emotion for anyone, but the idea is that we can get comfortable being uncomfortable so that we aren't trying to push loneliness aside when it comes up. And back to that word regulating.
Speaker 2:Well, I love that. When we are not comfortable being uncomfortable, what we try to do is disconnect from the discomfort. Being uncomfortable, what we try to do is disconnect from the discomfort. And if we try and disconnect from the discomfort, what happens is we disconnect from ourselves and relationships around us. That's why it's not important to just go wallow and live in your past, and I think that that's what a lot of people are like oh, I don't want to think about that, I don't need to live in my past, I just want to move on. Your past will repeat itself in your present until you deal with your past and what it means.
Speaker 3:And or you will have no access to yourself, and your partner and kids will also not have access to you. I think, that this is one of the primary reasons couples end up coming to see us is because they have this experience of I can't connect to you.
Speaker 2:Where did you?
Speaker 3:go, and a lot of times I was just thinking about this. This was the other part of second grade for you, or for me, from your story in second grade.
Speaker 2:We didn't know each other in second grade. It would have been really nice to know you in second grade.
Speaker 3:Well, I was quite a bit younger, so I wasn't there.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right.
Speaker 1:But, had we been in second grade together?
Speaker 3:yes, Were you born, yet I was born.
Speaker 1:Barely, barely.
Speaker 3:But we have a kid going into second grade this fall and I was saying recently like, oh, second grade was such a fun year and this was the year that we did shaving cream on our desks and we got to do math problems with our fingers in the shaving cream and Stephen's face was just blank.
Speaker 2:So this is the year I sat in a drainage tunnel and I looked at him. I was like, oh yeah, we had very different second grade experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's important, not that you know every grade of life, it's not a thing but second grade, specifically for Stephen, was a very important year in your development. It was a very lonely year and you didn't have parents that helped you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:There was no one when you would come home to be with you in that to help.
Speaker 2:you know that it would be okay you would be okay.
Speaker 3:You didn't have that, so having a kid in second grade is a potential time.
Speaker 2:For that loneliness, that story to be activated. Oh yeah, and then for me, because it's uncomfortable if I haven't kind of learned to think about that and connect that story to that emotion and find that place of balance, what I will do is I will become uncomfortable again and I will try is I will become uncomfortable again and I will try to dismiss that experience of being lonely in second grade, become disconnected from myself and then be disconnected from our son and disconnected from you, because it's like, oh, this is uncomfortable. I don't really, I don't know what to do. And you know what, if he comes home and he's having a hard day and he's feeling lonely, what to do? And you know what, if he comes home and he's having a hard day and he's feeling lonely, I'm not going. Potentially I'm not going to be able to engage with him in that.
Speaker 3:A lot of ways. We distract, we distance ourselves from ourselves, and if we're doing that, our partner and our kids don't have access either. And I think that is where the breaking point for a lot of couples is like fine, you don't have to want your emotions, but I want your emotions. So what do we do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so I again, I think that the way to connect, the way to fix this is you. You do have to learn the skill of connecting your emotions to the stories that inform them.
Speaker 3:Any story that informs it. Again, there's not, like the, the one secret.
Speaker 2:Like you, said like I was lonely. I've been lonely other times in my life, not just second grade.
Speaker 1:We were just talking about that though. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's the one that came to mind, but, but, yes, like if we had the stories inform the emotions and again, that's what helps us make sense of our life, that's what helps us make sense of what's happening. I think sometimes, when we feel emotions, we can feel really surprised by them, we can feel confused by them, we can feel scared by them, and if we don't have an understanding of what's happening, then that those feelings will continue the feelings of confusion, of surprise, of being chaotic, whatever it might be. And so you know, if you connect it to the story, you can find that balance.
Speaker 3:I think the chaos is a really good one, because I think another very common sort of polar extreme of that withdrawal is someone who's absolutely overwhelmed by their emotions and it is chaotic Just because you are able to, like, cry and have big feelings and demonstrate them doesn't mean you are more connected to them. Yes, and where they're coming from, and how to communicate them in a way that you can understand and feel soothed by because it doesn't feel soothing, just to be able to just, you know, feel very chaotic yeah, I love that overwhelmed.
Speaker 2:Yes, feel overwhelmed, and just to feel consumed.
Speaker 2:Yes, consumed in chaos, I think great descriptors, and so I think the question is okay. But what you know, like, how do you? How do you do that? You know how do you connect your emotions to the stories that inform them, and I think you know there's a myriad of ways. I think one of them is, you know, you sit down and you talk with someone you know professionally who can help walk you through your story. I think, to be quite honest, as you said, aaron, like our book helps couples think about and walk through the stories that are really specifically related to the 13 conflicts that we talk about, like teaching people, that process of this is how you get into your story, so that you know what is happening, what the emotions are. I think that journaling is a wonderful way to connect with your emotions.
Speaker 2:I think, if you're a physical person and body movement really helps you, things like exercising, yoga, meditation, things like cold plunges, all those kinds of things that take you into your body are really important because they can connect you to these larger stories.
Speaker 3:I think I've said this before too. When Steven and I were first married, or maybe just engaged, I used to not be able to access crying, even if I knew I was sad. I couldn't like release sadness without running. So, I'd, I would know I was sad. There was like a sad anniversary coming or you know, it was very shortly after my dad died, so there was just a lot of sadness, but I but I couldn't cry unless I ran. So I'd be like I'm sad, I want to cry, I want to be able to like feel sad.
Speaker 3:I got to go take a run Like I'll be back Um and and that that worked for me for a while. Um, a lot of people have to listen to music. A lot of people need a sad um movie.
Speaker 2:I think also just having a community of friends, of people, and talking about your life, um talking, about major, especially in this parenting season.
Speaker 2:What you're facing and where you've come from and who you are. I mean, I even think things like really good books, like one of my favorite authors is Wendell Berry, and anytime I read one of his books I feel like I know myself more deeply, just because he just has a way of taking people into a story, and I think books, movies, films, all those kinds of things like are there certain stories, or people who tell stories, that help you step into your own? That's another way for you to be connected to these things, and again the whole idea is not so that you stay stuck.
Speaker 2:A lot of times people are like I don't want to talk about emotions because I don't want to just get stuck there. The thing is is you will remain stuck, you will remain unresolved in your emotions and in your emotional experience. Emotions and in your emotional experience, if you don't connect it to the stories, you'll remain stuck. Connecting it to the stories is a part that helps it make sense and you have to tell that story to yourself so that it makes sense to you. And when I say makes sense, I don't mean justifies it or whatever happened was a good thing, or you're okay with whatever happened. None of that. It just simply helps it make sense to you of I feel this because of that. Of course, I would feel lonely, because I sat on a playground for a full year in a drainage pipe by myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, of course, when I feel loneliness, I might, I might be afraid that I'm going to feel lonely, that lonely again. And that there's no one who will listen and talk to you, that will care Um because sometimes we have drainage pipes, pipe moments but if we know that like someone cares, I can share that with someone.
Speaker 3:Or you know the, the experience like so I I wasn't able to sit with you in second grade, but like I can hear that story now and and and sort of be with you somewhat retroactively, um, but to at least make you think. I would want to know now, when you are feeling lonely, like you don't have to do the. The old thing you used to have to do with loneliness doesn't have to be replicated now.
Speaker 2:Right, and so that's why emotions are important. That's why it's important to be able to talk about emotions, because it helps connect you to your story. It helps connect you to the history of your life.
Speaker 3:It helps connect you to the history of your life. It helps connect you to yourself.
Speaker 2:Right, which then allows you to be connected to those around you your kids, your partner.
Speaker 3:The other thing, and my mom used to always say this. I know I've said on the podcast before we don't get to choose which emotions we allow and which we don't. We have different levels of comfort with each of them. But to have the full range of self and emotions and experience we have to and this is what she would say we have to let our pendulum swing. It just has to go all of the directions or it can't go any, it's stuck. And then we're stuck a little flat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so what are some ways that you know that you can connect emotionally to your story? Is it through yoga? Is it through a film? Is it through a book? Is it through moving your body? Is it through journaling? Is it through talking to the people in your community? Whatever it is, do that, keep doing that, because the more you are connected to your story and the emotions that come out of that story, the more you will be connected to yourself, the more capacity you will have to be connected to your partner and to your kids.
Speaker 2:Today's show was produced by Aaron and Steven Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents. And remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.