Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
My In-laws are driving me crazy!!!
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One of the most complex relationships to navigate for parenting partners is relationships with their parents and in-laws. What can parenting partners do to have healthy relationships with their parents/in-laws and give their kids strong relationship with grandparents? Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP answer this question and so many more in this episode.
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for being with us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell.
Speaker 3:I'm Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:And that was the eighth time I tried to do that introduction. I couldn't. I forgot the name of our podcast. I couldn't say my name right. I said it all too fast and mixed together. We are so lucky to even be here, given that beginning, but we are happy to be with you today. Thanks for joining us and listening. And on today's show we wanted to answer this question, not with a definitive answer, but with just some thoughts, some ruminations, some things that we have experienced ourselves, but also that we hear over and over from a lot of the couples we work with. And the question we want to answer is what do couples want from their in-law relationship?
Speaker 3:I think a lot of times couples think about this question when something isn't going right or if something has gone wrong, which kind of sounds like the same thing, but maybe isn't the same thing. But I think what we are trying to suggest and what we would really like more and more particularly parenting partners to consider, is this question proactively.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like before there's an issue before something goes wrong, like a conversation you have on the regular. Like before there's an issue before something goes wrong, right, like a conversation you have on the regular, like, hey, what is it that we want from your parents? What is it that we want from my parents as it relates to our kids and how their grandparents what kind of relationship are we looking for?
Speaker 3:Even the way you asked that question like what do we want from them?
Speaker 2:Ooh, well, yeah, I mean it not in a symbiotic, just kind of use them kind of thing. But like how can we have a healthy, strong relationship?
Speaker 3:with our in-laws, but I do think even the way you said the question is telling right.
Speaker 2:What does it tell you?
Speaker 3:I don't know exactly what it tells me. I think it just means, like I think you know, we spend a great deal of time thinking about how our own stories impact the current story we're telling and then, if we aren't aware of how it will necessarily shape our future. And I think for you. That question felt that feels true for me, like when my mom first started coming around us, because we dated in a city not where I was from, so my mom was not around for the early parts of our relationship.
Speaker 2:Can you reveal the name of the city we lived in, seattle? It seemed like you were trying to keep it secret.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 2:We once were in a city where we dated.
Speaker 3:We started dating in Seattle. I was from just outside of St Louis, but when my mom started coming, we were like dating and you definitely had this protective guard shield up of like what does she want from me? Ooh.
Speaker 2:I see what you're saying, yeah. Yeah, because, related to my own story, I kind of grew up in a situation where my parents generally did want something from me for themselves, and so there's this feeling of like a parent, like that's how parents are they're just trying to get something from you for themselves, and that in no way was what your mom was trying to do, but that did inform our relationship, the story which then also informed our relationship as a couple, because there are moments where you're like, why are you interacting with my mom the way you are?
Speaker 3:Sure. So I do think the questions matter. I don't think that there are bad questions, but I think questioning the questions is a good idea in this situation. So what assumptions are we bringing to this? What stories are we bringing? What fears do we have? What hopes?
Speaker 2:of? What kind of relationship do you want with your in-laws, with your parents? What does a healthy relationship look like?
Speaker 3:Right, yes, so I think that health is the word of the day and really probably just the word period, but I think there isn't one way for health to look Different families, different situations, very different contexts, different seasons of life.
Speaker 2:It can all look very different, different cultures, different ways of doing extended family. Different expectations around what in-laws and parents are Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Right. So I think there isn't a single measure for health that like a one size fits all. There are ideas of health, but the idea is like how this would work is you and your partner would have these conversations in a way that are proactive and aren't just. You know that thing your mom just did. I hated it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You have to make sure she never does that again. That's tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So to your point. I think what you're getting at is. So. I asked the question hey, what do couples, parenting partners, want from in-laws? And in some way well, not in some ways I think what you're saying is well, really. I think what you're saying is well, really, that's a question that is nuanced and subjective and up to each couple, really. But what needs to happen is, as parenting partners, there has to be an understanding of what do we want these relationships to look like. And the answer to that question is deeply rooted in your own caregiving experiences what you saw in your family, what you liked, what you didn't like, what you hoped for, what you don't hope for, and you need to be having that conversation as a couple.
Speaker 3:Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Um, there's like a. I have no idea where it started. I've just seen the the quote used a million different ways with a different background, so I don't know where it began, but this idea of like nothing bothers me more than my mother-in-law having input on my parenting. I'm very closely connected, connected to the product of her parenting and, trust me, it's not all that great, and I think that everyone can say that, like we all have our flaws, our faults, and so do our parents, no one is perfect, but these things get highlighted when it does feel like parenting comes in.
Speaker 3:I think it does heighten the sensitivity to input, to criticism, to all of it. So whatever kind of relationship you had with your families before you had kids, add kids to it. It typically intensifies.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:Sometimes it gets better because it's sort of like we can just shift to the kid focus but, that doesn't necessarily mean the relationship is actually better. It just sort of means we've distracted.
Speaker 2:Yeah and and too. I think that you know, one of the things to keep in mind in in all of this is, each time you have a kid whether it's your first kid, second kid, whatever it is an entirely new context for you and your partner, but it is also in an entirely new context for you and your parents, you and your in-laws. No one has ever been in this situation before with this particular kid, before with this particular kid. And so there's a process of continual learning and continual assessment, evaluation and reconstructing, replanning the things. So you might say like, hey, you know, this is what we really are looking for in our in-law relationships. You know at this stage of our life, and then maybe you have another kid, or maybe the kid you have gets a little bit older, and then what you are hoping for, what looks like a healthy relationship, changes, changes you have. You have to be willing to like have an ongoing interactive conversation with your partner and with your in-laws about this kind of stuff, sure.
Speaker 3:So I think what you just said is how it would work, right that?
Speaker 2:is how yeah yeah it works.
Speaker 3:Why it doesn't is so specific and unique? But the broad strokes everybody knows them right like because people feel threatened. My mother-in-law, you know, feels pushed out. My mom wants to be involved and have a say in how things go and me doing things differently feels offensive to her and like I'm directly criticizing how she did things or you?
Speaker 3:you know my father-in-law. He never was an involved parent to begin with, so why would anyone ask anything of him, except you know that we continue to make sure he's comfortable, even though I just had a baby, whatever any number of things. But old patterns resurface.
Speaker 2:Yeah, old patterns resurface.
Speaker 2:I think also parenting partners can get into a tug of war with one another and the tug of war might look something like I want our, where there's a feeling of it's tough to blend and join your family stories and to take the things that you appreciate and value from your family and the things that you would like to be different and blend them together with the things your partner appreciates and values and would like to be different. And sometimes that blending and collaboration is so difficult that I think couples get into this idea of like let's just do it the way I did it, and then they feel controlled by each other, and then they feel controlled by each other's family, and then you kind of get in a really negative cycle of I don't like anything to do with your family because it- that's the context where I feel controlled.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and all we ever do is fight about it, and you always side with your family, you don't? You know these kinds of things that come up, and I think that-.
Speaker 3:So I think that that's one side. I think another side is, sometimes we all really like each other's families yeah, um, you know, and it's like mostly good and then to say anything negative, even about our own, like I can think about this so much for me, but like my mom is driving me crazy today and you being like you know she does a lot for us, or you know, try to like come in with the voice of reason and balance, which is probably good eventually but I think that we um sometimes, as partners, rush to point out the other side too quickly and we don't allow the difficulty to be difficult right because, because relationships are good and like, why would we try to paint this bad picture of my family or your family when they love us?
Speaker 3:It's good enough, there's no harm Like let's not say like, let's be grateful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And I think it is good to be grateful. I think it is good to look for what is going well and what's working, and you know focusing on those things and not always on the negative.
Speaker 3:But I think you know the but there's nothing that makes someone want to focus on the negative than being forced to see positive.
Speaker 2:Sure yeah, yeah, yeah. Blind optimism, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I think yes of course we want to have a perspective of like, gratitude and strength, but also we have to be able to say that's so frustrating or you know, both and I don't think you're not
Speaker 2:saying that can do is. I mean, I really think it's as simple as using your imagination a little bit, grabbing a sheet of paper, sitting down and just thinking about, when you think about kids and their grandparents, what do you imagine those relationships would be like. Imagine those relationships would be like, and I think it's going to be fascinating for you as partners to hear what the other partner has to say. So, for example, for myself, I didn't really know any like growing up. I didn't really know any of my grandparents. I knew my grandmothers, kind of we visited them every once in a while. Both of my grandfathers had died before I was born.
Speaker 2:My parents were kind of a particularly kind of like insular type of family where we didn't really have many relationships outside of our family.
Speaker 2:It was just sort of our unit.
Speaker 2:We kind of kept to ourselves.
Speaker 2:And so I would hear people talk about they're going to go visit their grandparents, or their grandparents lived in town and their grandparents came over to their house and they like saw their grandparents on a regular basis, and I remember thinking like I don't even know what that's like, but I do remember wishing that that was the case, and so I think part of what I would imagine or want is for our kids to like their grandparents to be part of their life, like for them to see them, and you know, maybe they would live in the same town, they would be around. You know they go to grandpa and grandma's house, you know all those kinds of things and and so I would imagine that I want that. But I would also not really have any framework or understanding of how that should look or how to make that happen practically, which is a little confusing, probably confusing in a sense, because I just didn't see what that looked like, as opposed to, I think, what you saw, like you had a framework for what, for what that could look like, kind of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause I guess your grandparents died early.
Speaker 3:Well, my mom's parents were both gone by the time I was in first grade. My dad's parents were around, but my parents were divorced and we didn't. I was in first grade, my dad's parents were around, but my parents were divorced and we didn't see my dad a ton. Um, but they, so the involvement was just very different. Um, I, I mean, I definitely, you know, we had dinners at their house. They came to some of my events here and there, but they were definitely closer to my aunt's kids.
Speaker 2:Right, I guess I remember you telling stories about your mom and how she went over to her grandma's house like every day for school. Yeah, so that's maybe what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 3:Right. So my mom had very much, very involved grandparents when she was growing up and she could not wait for that. That was a real loss for her that we did not get to have that from her parents. Yes, 100%. I honestly think that that's another great and important I mean even like vitally important conversation to have with your own parents and your in-laws is what were your relationships with grandparents like? What was it like for you with your mom or mother-in-law, or dad or father-in-law?
Speaker 2:Because that's going to be what their expectation potentially is with you and their grandkids.
Speaker 3:And that's a big deal.
Speaker 2:That's a really important thing to know.
Speaker 3:Super important questions. I was talking with my brother about it randomly this week, about I know almost all of my mom's stories, just you know. I'm sure there were some. I didn't, but it feels like I do. I don't have any massive gaps. When I think of my mom's story, I know sort of sequentially, like where she was or what she might have been doing, but my dad's it's mostly gaps.
Speaker 3:I know some things about his childhood and then I know when they got married, but in between, sort of like mid high school, I know nothing and there's really no one to help me fill in those gaps. And I think that these are some of the things like. So, thinking about grandparents thinking about telling our kids stories, thinking about our parents being able to tell our kids stories, these are vitally important things and I do think that these are the conversations that grow these bonds and help grandparents know, like I want to know what your stories are like. I want to know this for you. I want, like this is proactive relationship building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. It's starting out with the premise of I want to be close to you and I want to understand what you imagine that closeness is going to look like with kids in the picture. And so I think we're talking about sort of this initial phase you know, initial stage of how we have this conversation is you and your partner trying to like imagine what are your expectations of what grandparent relationships look like with kids, with your relationship with in-laws, what that relationships look like with kids, with your relationship with in-laws, what that would look like. But then also, what do your parents, or what do your in-laws, what were their relationships like with grandparents? What did they imagine that to be? And having that very intentional conversation, 100%.
Speaker 3:We talked to couples about grandparents and in-laws and family dynamics a lot, quite a bit. It's a really common reason we end up talking with couples and it's very important. We all want these relationships. I've said it a million times, I'll say it a million times more I want as many people in my kid's life that will love them and enjoy them and celebrate them and support them when they're struggling as possible. So like yes let's build and grow these relationships.
Speaker 2:Well, no, I mean, I just sorry, like it just made me think, like because there's also plenty of research out there about how important grandparents can be in terms of attachment figures caregiving figures for your kids. I mean positive and negative, but I think to what you're saying is like this could be like such a resource and source of like, love and care for your kids.
Speaker 3:And depth and rootedness, and yes, I mean the research is overwhelming. Healthy grandparent relationships are so good for kids. It's also true. All I was going to say is in reverse healthy grandchildren relationships is so good for grandparents, but we you know, right In terms of their own health and their own wellness.
Speaker 3:Yes, longevity and yes, but yeah, I do think that these kinds of proactive conversations build that desire, that interest, that like hey, let's talk about this, let's have these conversations, let's do this thing together, rather than just the first time we ever talk about a relationship is for me to say like hey-.
Speaker 1:I don't like this yeah.
Speaker 3:And boundaries are important. Don't hear me saying they're not. We do need them, but boundaries work best when they are part of a well-rounded relationship not the only thing we're ever saying, and I mean how many times I can't.
Speaker 3:I can think of lots of people who say you know, I love being a grandparent, especially when my kids aren't around yeah and, and I get it, it's kind of funny, but the sentiment is they feel monitored, yeah, they feel control, yeah, and understandably it's those kinds of grandparents where I'm like well, no wonder, kind of funny, but the sentiment is they feel monitored, they feel controlled yeah. And understandably it's those kinds of grandparents where I'm like, well, no wonder.
Speaker 2:And this is a real reframe of this idea. You know, uh, there's all these um what they call those uh prenatal, uh classes and courses about like you know you're pregnant and you're getting ready to have a kid, like what to expect and what you should think about, and I think one of the things that we really believe in and always talk about, like there should be these same kinds of like preparing type ideas and conversations happening for parenting partners to be talking about how were our relationship be impacted.
Speaker 3:I think that's what we do.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is what we do, that's why we're here, but also for grandparents too, like, what do you want? Like, how do we prepare our really important relationships for our kids? And yes, it is what we do, I'm just, I guess I'm just kind of giving a plug for what we do, in a way Like we thought there should be, so we made it.
Speaker 3:That's true. That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what we're talking about here. Particularly with grandparent relationships, you have to be intentional about talking about even when they're good.
Speaker 3:So, yes, of course, when there's like a difficult, complicated relationship already, but just because relationships are healthy and good, again I know it's. You know I sound like a broken drum, but my mom was an excellent example of a very healthy attachment figure for our kids, and it wasn't because she was perfect. It was because when we would bring things up to her, she hurt us, she would. You know, there was all sorts of relationship that wasn't just um restrictive.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Um, it was a really well-rounded, healthy relationship where it was reciprocal and she could tell us, like you know what that actually hurt my feelings, or whatever it went both ways. We also aren't perfect in our dealings with her.
Speaker 2:Exactly. We also aren't perfect in our dealings with her Exactly, and she could also even tell us, like you know what, like something that I hoped for, something that I hoped for with the kids, is that this might happen, like she's able to express what she would like the relationship to look like too, and we were able to, like, talk about that.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And I think you are so right. We were not perfect at all in how we communicated things with her and to her, and so there needs to be that.
Speaker 3:There was a lot of graciousness extended all the directions because we were all learning in real time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then just you know, kind of we're talking a lot about Aaron's mom. We just didn't really it was. It was very different with my parents.
Speaker 3:For a hundred reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there just wasn't that ability and that openness and ability to exchange things like that and those conversations, also between us, had to take place.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:So I guess my point is it seems obvious that if there's a difficult relationship you would talk about you know like how this could come between the partnership here. But I think my point is it really doesn't matter Even my dad, who had passed away before Stephen and I even got married.
Speaker 2:we continue to have to talk about him. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know his absence is real and felt at different stages in our kids' lives and our relationship. We continue to have to talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so I think that what do couples want out of their relationships with in-laws and grandparents? Well, first of all, you have to, like, try and understand what your expectations are, and you have to understand what your in-laws and your parents expectations are and intentionally have those conversations, because I think, like, from there you can say, like, okay, well, what do we want to do, what do we want these relationships to look like? And I think that it creates a, an environment and a kind of the, the beginning of the story, that says this is important to us, you're important to us. We want to have healthy relationships, so much so that we want to make sure that we talk about them. And that's a wonderful, beautiful way to start off.
Speaker 2:You know, in this realm of kids and grandparents and in-laws and dealing with parents, and and I think that when you start there, it really allows you to be very creative and have a lot of dynamic. I mean, everyone knows that parenting is not a straight line Like one thing works this week, the next, you know another thing works two weeks from now. You're waking up at five in the morning.
Speaker 3:You know, all of a sudden somebody's sleeping till eight, but then they wake up at three, 30 for four weeks straight, like nothing is predictable, and so I saw a quote this week oh, I'm going to butcher it and I don't remember who said it but it was something along the lines of like have a fixed and very solid vision and be very flexible about how you get there.
Speaker 2:Yes, and and that, and you need to have a fixed and solid vision for what you want those relationships between grandparents and in-laws to look like.
Speaker 3:Especially as a partner.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, yes.
Speaker 3:Like we need a we vision about that, Not just fine, you know this seems important to you, so you handle it. No, this needs to be important to us because it matters to the health of our relationship and for our kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's really, really important. Our relationship and for our kids, yeah, yeah, it's really, really important. And if you create that openness at the beginning, I think what you do is you set these relationships up for a lot of success, where y'all all you and your partner and your families can have a shared vision for what you want together and a lot of flexibility in how you get there. Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.