Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
Presence over Presents? Strengthening Connection During Holiday Gatherings
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What happens when you're physically present but emotionally checked out during family gatherings? Meet Jameson and Mel, a couple whose holiday season often spirals into tension due to mismatched engagement levels. Listen as we unpack their story to understand the significant difference between simply showing up and being emotionally present. Their experience is a common struggle for many couples, especially during the stress-filled holiday season. We'll also share personal stories that remind us how easy it is to focus on tasks and miss the magic of significant family moments.
Picture this: one partner thrives in the hustle and bustle of holiday socializing, while the other is left feeling drained and overwhelmed. That's the dynamic between Mel and Jameson, and it’s not just about introversion or extroversion. We dive into how our nervous systems dictate social interaction and how past experiences shape the holiday expectations that can fuel misunderstandings and conflict. By understanding these elements—including common reactions like fight, flight, freeze, or fawn—we highlight the critical need for empathy and communication to navigate these social energy differences effectively.
Looking to connect more deeply with your partner this holiday season? Learn about the importance of understanding your own attachment style and how family background can influence your relationship dynamics. We tackle real-life challenges, from handling parenting stress to sharing the mental load, all while providing practical steps to reset and reconnect. Join us on this journey to strengthen meaningful engagement and create lasting memories with your loved ones, breaking free from unmet expectations and fostering true connection.
Hello and welcome.
Speaker 2:This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken.
Speaker 1:Here are our parents, our dad Dr Stephen Mitchell and our mom Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell.
Speaker 1:I'm Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:And on today's show. I've been working on this. I want you to know I spent more than 10 minutes thinking about this title for the show. On today's show we are going to be talking about what do you do if you have a partner who buys the presents for Christmas but isn't present for Christmas? Huh, so good. Don't you? I think it's good. I think you're going to think it's good Once you hear what the show's about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, here's my, here's my edit already, oh no. I spent so much time on that you didn't buy the presents and you're not present for Christmas.
Speaker 2:There we go. Ooh, she adds a really true statement. So that's what we're going to talk about. We definitely will unwrap that.
Speaker 1:But I do want Presents is what we're talking about Right, like presents, not presents Not like a gift, but like presents. Presents and engagement attunement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I actually do want to talk about a present, like a gift, and I'm just going to say, if you're wondering, what do I get my partner? What do I get my friend who's also in a relationship and parenting? What do I get my neighbor who's in a relationship and parenting? What do I get all the people I see at school? What do I get my neighbor who's in a relationship in parenting? What do I get all the people I see at school? What do I get them for Christmas? We have this great book called Too Tired to Fight.
Speaker 1:It's the gift that keeps on giving.
Speaker 2:It does 13 chapters or 16 chapters.
Speaker 2:16 chapters 13 conflicts and how to work through those conflicts It'll change your life. So that's actually true. Yes, I do believe that is true, all right. So conflicts and how to work through those conflicts it'll change your life. So that's actually true. Yes, I do believe that is true, all right. So here we go. What do you do if you have a partner who doesn't buy the presents and isn't present during the holiday season? See if this is a scenario that might fit anything you've run into. So Jameson and Mel, they have this fight every Christmas day.
Speaker 2:Christmas day is an event. It's a big event in Mel's family. Everyone goes over to her parents' house for a big meal, presents and hanging out all day. Mel loves it and she is so glad that their kids get to experience such a wonderful holiday tradition. Jameson doesn't dislike Mel's family or the get-together. Yet one of the things that Mel has communicated to him is that he seems disengaged and aloof all day long.
Speaker 2:Jameson typically responds what are you talking about? I go, I talk to people and I have a fine time. There's just a lot going on and it can be overwhelming. I'm not checked out. Mel snaps back Are you kidding me? You walk in, say hello to my parents and then go sit in the corner and brood all day long. No one even comes to talk to you because you're sending out the. Don't come over here. Vibe Jameson responds. Well, mel, not everyone can have endless holiday cheer like you and your family, mel, it has nothing to do with endless cheer. It has everything to do with just being engaged and present to your family on a day that is supposed to be about being present and engaged with your family. You don't have to be Mr Outgoing life of the party, but you aren't even present and enjoying the time with us. It's like you would rather not be there. Have you ever had that conversation with your partner on Christmas day?
Speaker 2:or honestly, just in life, Because I do think that this isn't something that just happens on a holiday. This is something that happens on a day-to-day, but it feels amplified definitely during something like a holiday. Like Mel saying, this is a day that is specifically looked at and supposed to be a day where you're present to your family, and this is something that we hear from a lot of the couples that we work with a question of generally, there is a feeling between partners where one partner has the feeling that their partner, when they're together as a family, is not engaged. They're disengaged, they're aloof, they're distracted, they're maybe busy doing things for the family, but they don't feel like they're with the family. And there's this conversation, this word gets thrown around I just want you to be engaged, I just want you to be present. And then there's this back and forth, like Jameson and Mel have, where it's like debating, like I am Like what are you talking about? I'm not, you know, whatever it might be, and I think that this is a very typical kind of conflict between couples.
Speaker 1:There was this. I will try to keep it short, but there was this personal story for us that fits perfectly. It was our oldest kid's second birthday. My mom bought him a train set. Steven, you must have spent close I don't know hours and hours, and hours. I said close to four, but I think it was. Yeah, I have no idea, I don't remember and hours and hours.
Speaker 2:I said close to four, but I think it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have no idea, I don't remember putting this train set together, clearing out of space and we had like one room that was free in our house. That was like the catch-all room. It was a guest bedroom, it was the storage room. It was now a train room right and like you made a space for it, you, it, it was a whole thing, and then you almost missed him coming in to like, see it the reveal yeah, because you were like and I was like how could you miss this?
Speaker 1:and you were like miss it. I was up for 17 hours yesterday preparing for this and you were so hurt and I was so hurt like you almost missed it, like how could this not be important to you like?
Speaker 2:right how?
Speaker 1:how could I communicate more that it is important to you? Like, how could I communicate more that it is important to me, right, right.
Speaker 2:And so the question being like, like, what is going on in this situation and I think some of the you know there's probably a lot going on, but I think two primary things that we feel that we see happen for couples, or notice that is useful to talk about is, first of all, this conversation is usually related to differing nervous systems and differing ways of managing overwhelm and stress. Simply put, sometimes people manage overwhelm and stress by withdrawing, and that's what it seems like Jameson does. He gets overwhelmed, so he's like oh you know, I just need some space, I need some time, and he withdraws. So typically this is about nervous systems and how couples can talk about that. And then I think, secondly, it's about an understanding of attachment and what presence and what engagement really is and really means, and why it is so important in building relationships with kids and partners.
Speaker 1:And extended families and extended families yes.
Speaker 2:So let's try to unpack that a little bit. Yes, and I think that the nervous system dysregulated thing. I think that that's maybe the simplest one from the standpoint of when people get and it's not to say so you go into a social setting, like a holiday party. Some people like it seemed like Mel, like that energizes her, she's locked in, she's excited, she's engaged. Jameson, that kind of social energy can feel overwhelming. Doesn't mean he doesn't like it, doesn't mean he doesn't like people, but it just feels like a lot. And so one of the ways that he tries to manage that social energy is he withdraws. She says you go, you sit in the corner and you brood all day and really probably what he's trying to do is just calm his nervous system because there's a lot going on.
Speaker 1:It's overwhelming. Yes, yes, yes, I think a lot of people. I don't think. You're talking exactly about introvert, extrovert.
Speaker 2:Right, but it sounds a lot like introvert and extrovert.
Speaker 1:And every family has them all, and so we've talked about this before on the podcast, but my mom's family specifically, I'm very close with and they have a Mel's family.
Speaker 2:Christmas is not too dissimilar. Mel's family.
Speaker 1:Christmas was my historic favorite.
Speaker 2:Christmas for sure.
Speaker 1:There are always the people, and they all find each other. You my Aunt Benita. It's like they find each other and they're like I see you. I see what this is costing you and the rest of us are like what's wrong with you and there's nothing wrong with them, Nothing at all.
Speaker 2:But I do think that it's really important. Like there's nothing, exactly there's nothing wrong. But if you notice, mel and Jameson have a misunderstanding of how they're interpreting what the other is doing. Mel is seeing this as you're withdrawing, you don't want to be here, you're sending out like a terrible energy, it's ruining it for the kids and I think Jameson is trying to say like it just is a lot and I'm trying to get some space Now. They could have a much better conversation about that than what they're having right now. And oftentimes you're not even able to get to this nervous system conversation because you do what Jameson did. He starts defending, he starts ripping on Mel's family in a sense like oh, no one can have this endless Christmas energy. And then you're feeling attacked and you can't actually even understand or see each other. So we'll try to like lay it out, like how could you have that conversation differently? But we do think that this is about nervous systems. Question is for you and your partner who's who?
Speaker 1:Right right, right right.
Speaker 2:You know, are you the more kind of energized, excited, kind of getting your kind of energy in a way it's similar to what an extrovert would do in that social setting. Or are you more the withdrawn? I enjoy this, but this is a little overwhelming. I need to take some space.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I think is massively important to address in this conversation is the emotional content of something like a big holiday or it's supposed to be something, it honestly doesn't even matter. Whatever, if anytime, there's a feeling of I'm supposed to make sure my kids are having a great experience, or I'm supposed to be creating memories, you know, yes, yeah, there are very often people who don't have that story within their own bodies because that wasn't a part of their history. Yeah yeah, and they don't know what to do, and shut down.
Speaker 2:And that would be a very true thing for me and you Correct, I mean we. To be honest, I was. You know it's obviously holidays are coming up. I was talking to Aaron. I was like our holidays were like when I was growing up. We're so insular. It was just our family. We didn't do much of anything. Most of the time people just sat around and watched TV. Like it was so slow and there was nothing going on and it kind of was like oh and I so for me, like I'm like, yeah, I want to carry on that tradition for my kids. No, when I came into your family, it was just totally different. I'd never experienced anything like it.
Speaker 1:Right and I think what's confusing for a lot of couples. So I knew that. I knew that about you even before you came home with me to anything any of my family get togethers, but in my mind I was like, oh, he didn't like that. He had such a miserable experience. He's going to love this. And in your mind you did, but in theory and in practice.
Speaker 2:Right, Well, it's a little bit of both. I'm like, wow, this is great. And like, oh my goodness, Like I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 1:Like what do you do? And I think that's a big thing. So a lot of people we go into and I think this is where the nervous system part feels a little different than uh like the introvert extrovert? Yeah, because you either fight, flight freeze or fawn and a lot of couples get into a fight. A lot of couples freeze.
Speaker 2:Our partners have yeah, I mean I I froze and kind of withdrew headlights.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean all these people and steven's, just like and you like.
Speaker 2:what is wrong with you? Yeah, and that's fight.
Speaker 1:Like I will break you out of your frozen state and I know just how to do it and I'll say there's something wrong with you. And there's not, and that's not kind. I'm not trying to defend that even a little. But the point being, our history matters. Just because we want to be able to be in a different situation or come in a different way than we used to, doesn't mean we can just make ourselves do that. We can't just flip a switch and have a different experience just because we want to.
Speaker 2:Right right.
Speaker 1:It takes a little bit of work.
Speaker 2:And you know it's so interesting. I think I did eventually. I mean, we've been together for quite a while now and I do think that I learned. I learned how to be in that environment and how to be comfortable and how to enjoy it, and you learned how to-.
Speaker 1:To stop paying such close attention to every second of if you are completely engaged, if you seem disengaged of if you are completely engaged if you seem disengaged. Right, Like I could just sort of hold my own self and my own experience and be like Stephen's going to have whatever experience Stephen's going to have, and as long as that isn't directly costing me or my kids, that's completely fine.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but I think also just part of it. We just learned how one another operated in those situations. Also just part of it. We just learned how one another operated in those situations. And I think that what I was able to do is you were like Stephen, you seem like you're deer in headlights, you seem like you're not engaged, it looks like you're actually not having fun, and I think that that's sending the wrong message to the family, because I think you actually are enjoying that and I'm like that's exactly right. So I could be more aware of like hey, I need to be aware of like I might be nervous, because I do get nervous in social settings. I do get a little overwhelmed in social settings, like how can I be projecting the image that I want to be projecting? And then I think the other part of it for you that you had to learn is not everyone can just go into that social setting and keep going at the same level of energy and enthusiasm as you and there might be times to kind of check in and check out, and that way that's a nervous system conversation, that's a not misreading each other and understanding one another better, and we'll show you a little bit of how that can go for Jameson and Mel too, but that's how it went for us, I think.
Speaker 2:But I also think that there's something else at play outside of the nervous system conversation. It is attachment, and I think this is what I mean by that. So attachment theory is very clear, that it is to build close relationships. It is very important that we offer our presence to the people in our lives, and it says there's two ways that we offer our presence to people that help them feel close, connected and loved. The first is our proximity. It is our actual, our physical bodies. So being close, if someone is sad, coming, like physically close to them, putting an arm around them, if someone is happy, being physically close to them, giving them a hug, like looking at them, like so our actual physical bodies need to be part of this.
Speaker 2:But also part of presence is our emotional responsiveness. In other words, when someone is doing something or expressing something, we are looking at them eyes to eyes and reflecting to them what we see. We're engaged with them, we're responding to what they are expressing. We're engaged with them, we're responding to what they are expressing. And so I think for Mel, she sits there and she looks at Jameson and she says look, if you're over there in the corner brooding, not doing anything, you are not building connection, you are not offering presence to me, to the kids or to my family, and that's kind of the point.
Speaker 2:That's the point of being in relationship, that's the point of doing things like this it is to be present with one another and that's what that energy is about. And that's something that Jameson is not clued into, is not connected to, and I think that that is a really vital part of when partners are talking about presence and engagement. Oftentimes that's what they're talking about. I don't feel like you're putting forth the effort or I don't feel that you see the importance of attaching to the kids and to me and to other people around us in that really meaningful, connective way.
Speaker 1:Sure, I think there's a thousand ways that happens or doesn't happen, because, also, I can think of a thousand and one times where one of our kids, especially when they were little, these massive gatherings are overwhelming and you would be able to take them and go play and, when we were at my mom's house, go to her playroom and go read books and just check back in with them in a really meaningful way, and so it's not like if you're off on the side, you are definitely not attaching to your family.
Speaker 2:Right, but it's you're off on the side doing nothing except like being like, like trying to like you're saying what the difference is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take your own space because it's overwhelming for you and you're not coming back in to like does a kid need to take a break, can't? Is there something I can be doing right now to be engaged? Like it's it's not a um. So yeah, it's not. It's not. It's not about um being in the midst of the party and and doing what everyone's doing. It's it's being available to the people in your life and the way that they need it. And if you're off Jameson in the corner brooding, you're available to no one.
Speaker 1:Except to yourself. And I think a lot of the times and we actually get to this in the scripts too but a lot of the times the Jamesons, the Stevens they fear that they will be overwhelmed, so they remove themselves before that can happen.
Speaker 2:And then the.
Speaker 1:Aarons and the Mels. We completely forget to check in with ourselves, we ignore all of our own cues and we are just um sort of taken away in the moment energy of it all and find like oh, I was actually really hungry hours ago right, which isn't that engaged either, like that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying that we have sort of these reverse or opposite, rather, disengagements. Mine looks very engaged, but I might not have any more access to myself or to my kids in those moments.
Speaker 2:And so I think that, again, that's what, like one of the things that couples can do as they go into the holiday season is first think about, like you know what, how do I respond in these social settings, and are there ways that I feel a level of stress or anxiety? And then how do I respond? Do I pull away? Do I get over involved, but not any more engaged, like what takes place?
Speaker 1:I think this is sorry. I think this is the things I think that people feel like they have to settle for one or the other. So you were always doing stuff at my mom. So, you were not the Jameson who sat and brooded.
Speaker 2:Right, but I was, I was helping out, but that also helped me kind of take some time.
Speaker 1:Yes, and my mom was like oh my gosh, someone who actually sees that like the garbage needed to be taken out or that we needed more ice in the cooler or whatever Right right, right Any number of things. You were always doing stuff. I'm like stop doing stuff.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Come be with us, and I think that people feel like they have to settle for one or the other. Right and then of course there are the couples that were like I get nothing. We do get the broody, like the person who is in the corner and that is just putting off the vibe of I would rather be doing anything except being here. So I get that, but the idea is like how can we respect each other's differences? Because you did need more space.
Speaker 1:I also needed to check in with myself from time to time and my kids Same for you, but allow ourselves to accept where we kids same for you, but allow ourselves to accept where we are, accept where our partner is and then find some choice and not just like opposite react and say you never engage. All you do is do.
Speaker 2:And so you have to know how you respond in those situations. So have that conversation and then also have a conversation about like, okay, well, how can we be mindful and check in with each other? How can we, you know, is this a moment like, where it might be like, hey, I know, you know, Aaron, you really want me to come here and you know I don't know, play this family game or whatever. But also I'm looking at your mom and she's like looking really stressed in the kitchen, Like I feel like I should go help her. I'm going to go help her for 20 or so minutes and then I'll come back, Because helping your mom.
Speaker 2:That's about being present too, and that's about building attachment.
Speaker 1:That feels very different, right? Yes, but if the fear is and I think this is the lens we put on I think couples do this a lot I know exactly what to expect from you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And you're going to disengage. So the only thing I see all day long is the ways you're proving my story my narrative my lens right.
Speaker 2:Right and opposite Right.
Speaker 1:You're like you're so just in the midst, you don't see Not paying attention to anybody.
Speaker 2:Yes, or anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's all you see, and we both feel really mischaracterized.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's all you see, and we both feel really mischaracterized in the whole story. So this is why what does it mean for us to be present and engaged with each other and with the kids and with the family? How can we communicate about? Is that happening? I'd love for it to happen now in this way. Can it happen?
Speaker 2:now in this way You're talking about it, because ultimately, the goal really is to be present and engaged. The goal is to build relationships that matter, that are connected. That last. The reason oftentimes people get so wrapped up in like, oh, I want to create this memory, is because really, what they want to do is they want to connect with their kids and they want to be close to their kids and they want their kids to feel close to them and they want this like experience of being connected.
Speaker 1:And so, yes, They've seen and known and loved and celebrated and enjoyed. And like these little moments matter.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And it's really hard to feel like these little moments matter when you don't feel like your partner's present. Or you look at them and they're checking on their phone. Yeah, or they set up the train table, but they missed the reveal.
Speaker 2:But I think, if you go into these situations and say what we both want because I think both partners generally want this is we want to be connected and we want to be close, In other words, present and engaged, and you are purposeful in saying that's what this is about.
Speaker 1:Right. So how can we choose that, rather than reacting at each?
Speaker 2:other. Then you're having a conversation about that. Rather than you didn't play the board game with us, and I'm really upset. You're like, okay, well, maybe playing the board game would have been an attachment moment or maybe it wouldn't have been. Like all you're going to be talking about is did you play the board game or not? But if you're like, if you have that ethos of like, hey, today is about being present and engaged, building connection with our kids, with you, with the family, how can we do that? It's a very different ethos, so let's say you know how do we?
Speaker 2:say any of that. Yeah, it's a very different ethos.
Speaker 1:So let's say you know how do we say any of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jameson and Mel are trying to figure this out, so I'll be Jameson, you can be.
Speaker 1:Mel here.
Speaker 2:So Jameson comes back around and he initiates a conversation and says Hold on Already.
Speaker 1:that's crucial. Jameson initiates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because.
Speaker 1:Jameson's tendency is to withdraw and avoid these conversations and like, whatever, we'll just make it through. So big deal yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So Jameson takes the step, big step, comes back, initiates and he says hey, mel, we have this fight every Christmas and if I'm honest, I know that I'm not listening to you and I'm getting defensive. You keep saying that I'm not present. Can you tell me what you mean by that, or what being present would look like to you?
Speaker 1:Mel says. Well, an example of what I mean is that when we play a board game as a family on Christmas day, you don't play. The kids love these games and we're all having such a fun time and you're off somewhere else, missing the moment. I want you to be with us in these moments.
Speaker 2:Jameson.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I can see that that seems pretty simple, I think and this sounds silly, probably but I just get overwhelmed with all the activity and in some ways it feels like there's so much going on. It doesn't really matter if I'm involved or not.
Speaker 1:Mel, it matters so much to me, it matters to the kids, it matters if you're involved. I know there's a lot going on, but also we're there and the kids are having an experience and it's important for you to be a part of those. I also get it is a lot and I get that you might need some space where you can maybe check out and find yourself.
Speaker 2:Jameson. Well, I want to be involved in present and, you're right, I do need some time to check out and, honestly, maybe you do too. Let's make a plan. It would be helpful for me to know if there are some specific moments or traditions in the day that you really want me to be available for. Like, playing board games takes precedent over doing the white elephant giveaway or something like that. I just want to be sure to be present in the moments that you're thinking of.
Speaker 1:That would be so helpful because I get you don't and honestly can't be engaged in everything that's going on, but there are things I do care about more than others. Let's walk through the day, let's get a plan.
Speaker 2:And some people might say, really that's it and, to be quite honest, yeah, really that's it. To be mindful of, how do our nervous systems operate in these settings? And then also, what would presence and engagement actually feel like? Like, how would you know that I'm being present and engaged? Because I think that, to Jameson's point, like it can appear like he doesn't want to be, but Jameson does want to be present, he does want to be engaged to his kids, he does like all of that is important to him. But I think that you, you have to have that conversation to know how your partner's interpreting if that's happening or not and when.
Speaker 1:You can you know like operate, like I also think we've talked to enough Jameson's A lot of times. The Jameson's sincerely don't know how.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they do spend the entire day on their phone. They know exactly how to do that, and it's a lot less threatening than feeling like they try and it didn't count anyway. Oh, that didn't matter. That's not an excuse, but it is an explanation, and so help me understand exactly what you mean.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that that's true. I mean, even Jameson said in there this might sound silly, he's like I do get overwhelmed. But also, could you tell me the things that that would feel meaningful to you or not? Because I do think that there is a real part like of not knowing, and I think some partners are like are you kidding me? Like you don't know, or the Jamesons might be embarrassed to say that the males might be frustrated to hear that Like well, if I have to tell you that it doesn't matter, and it's like no, like like make a plan for what's going to work so that you both get what you want. And in that you're communicating to each other.
Speaker 2:You're important to me, right, and and I think that that's how you end up walking out of these holiday moments feeling close and connected and like you were a team that worked through a really important day and created some really special and important moments for your family and your kids. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting. Hey everyone, we're Stephen and Erin Mitchell, co-founders of Couples Counseling for Parents and creators of the Relationship Reconnection Series inside of our Partnerhood membership.
Speaker 1:We created this series because, as parents, we know how hard it can be to keep the connection strong while juggling everything else. It's easy to get stuck in old patterns, especially when stress, in-laws or the mental load get in the way.
Speaker 2:This series isn't just about solving the fights you're having today. It's about digging deeper, starting with you. We start by helping you reflect on your own attachment style, family makeup and the stories in your life that have made you who you are and inform the kind of relationships you have. When you understand yourself better, you can show up more engaged in your couple relationship.
Speaker 1:And from there we guide you to explore your relationship story with your partner. This isn't about blame. It's about seeing what shaped your relationship dynamic and couple story so you can maintain what is working and start rewriting a new story in the areas that aren't. Once you've done that work, we dive into the real life challenges parenting, stress, dealing with in-laws and sharing the mental load at home.
Speaker 2:Each workshop in this series is designed to be a short, practical, step-by-step guide, giving you and your partner the insights and tools to reconnect in a meaningful way. Think of it as a reset button, not just to solve problems, but to build the kind of partnership you really want.
Speaker 1:Whether you're feeling distant, overwhelmed or just need a new way to communicate, this series is the first step in building the connection you deserve.
Speaker 2:If this sounds like something you need, we'd love to have you join us in partnerhood. Today's show was produced by Sarah Kuehn, Stephen Mitchell and Aaron Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it, and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening.