Couples Counseling For Parents

From Tiredness to Togetherness in Parenting

Dr. Stephen Mitchell and Erin Mitchell, MACP Season 4 Episode 89

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Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP discuss the "Embodiment Chasm," a concept that highlights the different experiential realities between parenting partners. Through the story of Maria and Todd, the hosts explore how the differences in parenting experiences can lead to misunderstandings, and they offer insights on communication strategies to overcome this chasm for a healthier relationship. 

• Introducing the concept of the Embodiment Chasm 
• Case study of Maria and Todd's experience of the Embodiment Chasm 
• How the Embodiment Chasm creates the roles of Default and Non-default parent 
• Barriers in communication caused by the Embodiment Chasm in a couple relationship 
• Strategies for overcoming these barriers and fostering connection and understanding 
• Sample Script of how couples can start the conversation and resolve the barriers created by the embodiment Chasm

Speaker 2:

Hello and welcome this is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell. Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell, and Happy New Year. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell, and happy new year everybody. We're excited to be with you today for our fourth season of Couples Counseling for Parents. Yeah, and I was looking at something as we were getting ready to record. This is our 88th episode, which means we will hit our 100th episode this year, and I think that's pretty cool, so I was thinking we need to celebrate that in some way. I didn't get any further in my thoughts about that other than we should celebrate our hundredth episode.

Speaker 1:

Well, you have 12 episodes, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I mean, think about it, we're going to have a some kind of celebration.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic, and the community. I would not miss it.

Speaker 2:

But I've enjoyed doing this podcast for 88 episodes with you, buddy.

Speaker 1:

Same and and thank you all for being here with us.

Speaker 2:

Yes, Huge thing, like there wouldn't be a point to this if no one was listening.

Speaker 2:

I guess, so, and you know what I think it is, it's kind of cool. We have 11,000, last time I looked 11,000 people who subscribe to our podcast. So thank you all you people out there. It really, it really means a lot to us for sure. And you know, just heading into the new year, as you're thinking about things, we would love for you to think about our book. We had the privilege of writing a book and releasing it this past summer and Too Tired to Fight it's out there in the universe on Amazon. If you enjoy what we talk about here on the podcast, if you enjoy the content that we have on Instagram and find that it's helpful for your relationship, this book is more of that, more of that good stuff for you to enjoy. But also we really do think that it can help you have a more connected relationship as you and your partner parent together, and so that's a great way to start out 2025.

Speaker 2:

That is a great connection less conflict.

Speaker 1:

Sign me up.

Speaker 2:

That's right. That's right. We're here to make your next year magical. Aaron looked at me like why'd you say that? Like I shouldn't have said that, but I stand by it. And so, on today's show, we want to talk about a little phrase that we call the embodiment chasm. I'll say it again the embodiment chasm. And you might be thinking what's that? Well, we're going to describe it, and this show was born out of a conversation Aaron and I had on our drive back from Phoenix. We went to see some family for the new year in Phoenix, had a great time, and on the car ride back, aaron and I were talking about work and couples, because that's the kind of stuff we talk about, and Aaron was just sharing with me some of the comments that our followers made on Instagram on some posts that we did and or that Aaron posted. I'm not going to take credit for the post. Aaron posted it and it's this classic couple experience that many couples face when they have a baby that then affects their relationship forever moving forward.

Speaker 1:

And inevitably and inevitably so it and you have the opportunity here, and this is what we want to do is you have the opportunity to have it impact your relationship for the disconnected or have it impact your relationship for the better and more connected?

Speaker 2:

yes either way, it's going to impact you, so the choice is yours, that's right, and so this relational experience that we're talking about when you have a baby is called we call it the embodiment chasm, and so what I want to do is give a little case example here to describe what we mean by that phrase, and then we'll unpack it a little bit more. So today we're taking a little journey with Maria and Todd, so let's step into Maria and Todd's life here. So Maria and Todd have three kids between the ages of 7 and 13 years old. They were leaving their friend's house.

Speaker 1:

That's funny. Stephen and Aaron have three kids between the ages of 7 and 13 years old.

Speaker 2:

I forgot to tell you that our nicknames are Maria and Todd.

Speaker 1:

Sorry, I'll let you finish. Yes, Continue please.

Speaker 2:

So Maria and Todd they were leaving their friend's house after a holiday party and Todd says to Maria did you see how little Derek was doing to help Rachel out during the party? She was getting food on a plate for their three-year-old while holding the baby and doing a thousand other things. I mean, derek was doing some stuff, but I was feeling anxious about the whole situation. Maria smiles and says yeah, it did feel like Rachel was doing a lot and Derek was helping out, but it didn't seem to match. Todd looks at Maria and says what is that smile? Maria says well, I mean, there was a time when you were not that different than Derek. Todd raises his eyebrows in surprise. What do you mean?

Speaker 2:

I was always way more engaged and involved than any other dad we knew when our kids were little, like Derek and Rachel's. Maria, yes, you were involved and engaged, but that doesn't mean you really got how overwhelmed and even things felt when we had Peyton. We fought all the time about who was getting more sleep or who was doing more. I felt like Rachel a lot. Todd raises his arms Whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't get it.

Speaker 2:

You're saying I acted like Derek. No way.

Speaker 1:

I'm not like him.

Speaker 2:

I was never like that, maria.

Speaker 2:

Of course you're not exactly like him, but, todd, there is a huge part of my experience as a parent that you didn't get then, and, as you can tell because we're having this conversation, you still don't get, in some ways we still fight about that same old feeling, that you just don't see how my experience of having kids impacts me differently than you. Even if you get that it is different, you don't see how this difference matters and what it feels like for me. You don't see how this difference matters and what it feels like for me.

Speaker 1:

I love this case example so much Like I honestly feel myself just smiling ear to ear. You really are.

Speaker 2:

Like, so I'm taught. What's that smile about, erin? Like, what are you saying?

Speaker 1:

My favorite part is when Maria smiles. Just even that Maria smiles and says because here's the thing, one this happens out to like dinner with friends. This moment happens so often with clients all the time where someone's trying to say and typically it's this default parent which we're going to talk about, the default parent here in a second Like oh my gosh, yeah, and then that you know that parent and their partner's like yeah, that one.

Speaker 2:

And then, like you are, that, parent and me, I mean.

Speaker 1:

this has happened to us so many times.

Speaker 2:

I feel like it's happening right now, like where I'm smiling. Yeah, todd.

Speaker 1:

No, I just love it. I think it is so common and I do think that this is the moment, so it Well, and this is the embodiment chasm.

Speaker 2:

This moment is the embodiment chasm. Sorry, but go ahead.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so that I mean that this moment describes the embodiment chasm, right, but like so, this is the moment and this is what we talk about in the book over and over and over. So either Todd and Maria are about to have the same fight in the old way, right, and they're about to get super reactive and todd's gonna say, like what do you mean?

Speaker 1:

I'm not like you always do this and you dismiss everything I say, and then maria is going to be like cool, you always do this and my experience doesn't matter and I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. Yeah, let's talk about that now right um, and then it's gonna just, I mean, they were already derailed, but that's where it stays. Yeah, um, and like you know what, it's just better when we don't talk about this this. I have resolved that I don't need this part of me known, fine.

Speaker 2:

Yeah For Todd and Maria. They're already a little bit past this beginning early stage of kids, so they're just like you know what we're past. That, let's just move on is oftentimes how it happens.

Speaker 1:

Right. It's difficult, it's complicated, we just don't have to talk about that. But the opportunity is here and this is what we talk about in the book. Conflict no one wants to have it. We don't want conflict, but all it's trying to do, all that this opportunity is, is something's important. And you have the opportunity here, Todd. You have the opportunity here, Maria, to connect and be known in a deeper way.

Speaker 2:

Do you want to?

Speaker 1:

Do you want it? It's going to be difficult.

Speaker 2:

So that's a great. Do you want to? Do you want it? Well, you know what Todd and Maria do, so we're going to get into it. Because, what we're talking about here is this you're right, this experience describes the embodiment chasm, and typically this does begin when you're trying to conceive, and generally it's with your first Well it begins it begins with the first pregnancy, where you're trying to so I think to be clear, we are going to talk here specifically about the couple who gets pregnant, but this happens to couples who adopt.

Speaker 1:

Also, this happens to couples who go the route of surrogacy. This happens to all parenting partners. We are going to continue with this example of where one partner got pregnant.

Speaker 2:

Right, and the reason we're talking about it from an embodiment standpoint is because I think for Maria and Todd, the chasm is this Maria was the one who was pregnant, thus she embodied having a child in a different way than Todd.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and so I think, even for you right now, because I know for a fact. I'm going through my own memory my Rolodex. I'm aging myself with the Rolodex there but of all of our trying to conceive experiences and I was the person who was thinking about it every single second of the day, I was the one who was aware of every single bodily change it was happening in my body, and this isn't a good thing or a bad thing, we are not trying to say that that shouldn't be the case and Steven should have been aware of my body.

Speaker 1:

That is not what we're saying. We're just explaining how it happens.

Speaker 2:

Right, because it's your body that is so uniquely impacted by pregnancy, and this is why I think it happens with surrogacy. I think this is why it happens as an adoptive parent, because, also, if the body is so involved, even if it's, I want to be pregnant but I can't, or I choose not to be pregnant and there's someone else carrying our child, there's still a body involved in a different way than what I could ever experience or what Todd could ever experience.

Speaker 1:

Well, even how we store experiences, it's a bodily thing.

Speaker 2:

So for whatever your story is.

Speaker 1:

There's a body component to this, and that's true for the Stevens and Todds of this world as well. It's different. Yes, it just is different.

Speaker 2:

And that difference is what makes the communication and the understanding of one another's experience not match up. And I think that this is also where kind of those terms default parent, non-default parent emerge.

Speaker 1:

Sure, or at least where the roles Right.

Speaker 2:

Right is also where kind of those terms default parent, non-default parent emerge Sure, or at least where the rules Right Right. Because no one knows. They're assuming either of those until and generally it falls into the default, parent is the more embodied parent, the one impacted bodily more.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely yes, so, and I think that there's.

Speaker 2:

So that's Maria, and then Todd's the non-default.

Speaker 1:

Right, and that isn't always the case. We've definitely and I think we've talked about this in the podcast before specifically with our youngest kid. There were times when our youngest kid chose Steven. There was like an entire six month period of time where he would be like no daddy, no daddy, and that had never happened with our other kids, even in that experience. And Stephen managing all of our kids, sports things which at this point in our life, is like a full time job.

Speaker 1:

But like there are things Stephen does which I'm still the default parent and you typically know that it's just like the one who's considering and thinking and planning and plotting and anticipating and predicting and the one who also cuts the apples. That's sort of like you know dad's sitting right beside you.

Speaker 2:

Right. But you're asking me Sure, right, right, because our kids have done that. I'm sitting right there, and then our kids have been like hey, mom, can you cut some apples? And I'm like right here, so you like you like looked over me to ask your mom default parent.

Speaker 1:

Right right, right right.

Speaker 2:

And connected to again the embodied experience?

Speaker 1:

Yes, and so this is and we're just setting this up a little bit because no one meant for that to happen it's, but here's, and this is what I always say like this is the conversation we were having in the car too. Like, um, this is the conversation we were having in the car too, it's. It is interaction after interaction where I am making decisions in my mind, like noticing things, making a decision moving on a million times a day and you don't even know.

Speaker 1:

Right, that's not your fault, I don't. I don't even mean that in a critical or blaming way.

Speaker 2:

That's just how it happens right right, and then when this baby is born or arrives because, even thinking about that, so a simple way that that works is in terms of knowing when to feed the baby, knowing when naps and those kinds of things happen. Like there's a way, particularly in those early phases and stages of a of um, a little baby's life, where you are just clued in chemically, bodily, like, in a way that you're like, is is the way it happens, to what the need is. That isn't even um, in some ways there's not even an awareness, it's just something that's happening that is then not happening for the disembodied or non-default parent. And so there's so much of your experience as the embodied partner that is happening and is taking place in an unknown way, right, and then, so I think that this is where the Unknown to you, yes, yes, yes, and this is where the imbalances and the chasm begins. Because I think that, for you know, I think someone like the non-default parent might hear what I just said and say, well, like, how am I? Like, why am I getting blamed for that? Like, if I don't know it, then what am I supposed to? What am I supposed to do about that? Like, um, you've got to tell me, or you know, I can't read your mind, whatever it is.

Speaker 2:

And I think that that is the part where, yes, aaron, you could have communicated those things. Yes, maria could have communicated those things to Todd On some level, because it's embodied, you're not really even cognizant of it initially. But also there's a part for Todd, a part for Stephen, where I need to be aware, I need to know that that's happening. I need to have had that knowledge, I need to be aware, I need to know that that's happening. I need to have had that knowledge, I need to have researched, I need to have been so interested in what is taking place for my embodied partner over here that I would know these things, that I would be curious about them. And I think that that's where part of the disconnect and imbalance begins, because there's this feeling of don't you see what's happening for me? Don't you want to know? Don't you want to be engaged? You're not.

Speaker 1:

So I, yeah, I think that's exactly right. So I think that, um, because and I think you, you even said it, but I think it's worth repeating it isn't a problem until it's a problem. This thing didn't get set up on purpose. No parents set out. In fact, more and more especially, parents are setting out, like we're going to do this together and you're going to pay attention and I'm going to pay attention and we're not going to be those people. I mean we are seeing that couple over and over.

Speaker 1:

And I'm so glad it's such a more intentional and aware sort of a wide awake approach and that is fantastic, but the things that this embodied parent partner does aren't known to them, like I mean, the classic example and I know that we've said it a million times, but I will say it a million more because it is such a crystal clear one is sleep. I can't tell you, I breastfed our babies and that was a choice I made and I don't regret it. However, it set up already an imbalance.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So like Stephen could do all the things Stephen could do, and Stephen did all the things that Stephen could have possibly done. But I was awake so much more often in a night, in a day, and that did sort of clue me in and cause attunement to my kid in a way I'm grateful for and love. I even liked it at the time. But night after night after night, stephen would wake up a lot of times. He would do a lot of things and change the diaper, all those parts.

Speaker 1:

But say, a night happened where Stephen didn't wake up every single time, or even if he did, it honestly didn't really matter, because I was the one expelling breast milk and losing calories. It was an exhaustion. And then Stephen will wake up the next morning and all that would have to, and I wouldn't even be upset about it. I chose that night to happen the way that happened. I liked it. I'm not mad, I'm not holding any resentment stacked up in my mind. And Stephen would say, oh, I'm tired.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And that is just all that it would have had to have taken. My spine is suddenly straight up. I'm like hair's standing on end on my head, like I'm sorry. Did you just say you're tired and it's so silly? It really is silly, but it's not at all silly.

Speaker 2:

Because then I think what happens is couples hear that, so we hear that, and my response on some level was can I be tired?

Speaker 1:

Am I not allowed to be tired? Because, you're tired, the supreme tired Right.

Speaker 2:

And that's one response. Or there's a response of like okay, let's make the tired equitable so some partners, they might share how they do nursing or feeding in the evening. And so it's like okay, so I'll wake up for all the nighttime nursing so that you can sleep and you do the daytime nursing. Like there it's even. So you're not like you're not more tired, I'm just as tired. And I think the whole thing is those are both great.

Speaker 2:

Do those things if you want but, they don't speak to the embodiment chasm, which is the awareness that, yes, I can be tired.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and to be clear, just in case it's worth me stating yes, right, right, all that that reaction was, though, was an indicator that there is something we're missing, because of course Stephen is tired and deserves and is allowed whatever word. They're all wrong and inadequate and not quite enough. Of course he's tired, stephen gets an experience too.

Speaker 2:

Right, but what you? But your feeling of tired, your experience of tired you, aaron, default default period.

Speaker 2:

there's something to the quality and to the texture and to the flavor and to the reality of it that is being missed. Our tireds are not the same because our embodiment is different, and I think that that's where everyone gets all I'm going to say been out of shape on in some ways, because it they feel that it's um, they have to resist. This idea of your experience is different than mine and I think, on some level, you're tired is deeper than mine because of the embodiment piece. Right, I think that that is where people get in a competition about. No, I can't say that, but the reality is is the embodiment chasm creates a level of difference that has a higher degree of difficulty for the default parent than it does for the non-default parent.

Speaker 1:

And I think to be honest, because I'm noticing this in myself, I'm trying to think of all the clients we've had this conversation with. I don't think any default parent needs it to-.

Speaker 2:

To be equal. Yeah, they just need it to be recognized, acknowledged, and they do need effort to creating some kind of balance. Oh no, I think there effort to creating some kind of balance.

Speaker 1:

Oh no, I think there needs to be an effort towards balance.

Speaker 2:

Sorry, I didn't know what you were saying, but it doesn't have to be the same.

Speaker 1:

No, and I don't even think that any default parent feels like, oh, all I need them to say is it's more difficult, Like I don't really need that. What I need is to feel validated, respected and like there is adequate action, to reflect like oh, I feel the difference, or like I see that for you or Because let's go back to Maria and Todd.

Speaker 2:

So so Maria wasn't saying man, todd, you are a disengaged, terrible dad.

Speaker 1:

She doesn't, she genuinely doesn't believe that.

Speaker 2:

Right. She's like no, you are uniquely wonderful, you are engaged, you are doing all of those things. I'm not saying that's not true. I'm saying that there was a level of embodied engagement that I had with our children that you didn't have and that required a lot from me, and you weren't aware of it and didn't acknowledge it and didn't take the actions that would demonstrate to me that you understand that.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and I think that, while it is more intense with younger kids, I do think it is more intense Sure.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I don't think that it goes away. That intensity flares in random moments and different spots, like in this moment when maria smiles, it doesn't seem to hurt her in the same way, like it doesn't seem to hurt me in the same way, um, but it is a like. You know, right, I have felt that way too. I have felt that moment of like I'm, I'm sitting here literally. I mean that my favorite, favorite way of describing it is like I am managing like mountains and circuses and you're like, stressed after 30 seconds, like what.

Speaker 1:

Whatever your moment or your experience of this is, people have it and they just want to be known in this way, and I think that this is one of the deepest aches, for that default parent is you're never going to acknowledge or take action for that. That means you will never know a very core place in me Right yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then I think opposite. I think the frustration is a defensive one because I think what the non-default parent? You'll have to tell me if this is right or not. I think what the non-default parent hears is so I have to say I'm a disengaged and absent parent to make you feel validated.

Speaker 2:

Well, I think it's more of a feeling of, so I have to say that everything I'm doing and everything that I'm experiencing is less, thus not as difficult, not as challenging, not as important, not as meaningful as what your experience is. And it is this feeling of I'm like I have to Be diminished, yeah, like I have to not have an experience because yours is more important. And I think that that dynamic happens when there has been resentment built up because I because I don't think that that's what it has to be.

Speaker 2:

No, there's. There's a way I kind of think about it in in, uh, these terms in terms of like, um, you know what. In these terms, in terms of like you know what, like I played basketball growing up, you know what, and I worked hard and I was a pretty decent high school basketball player. That's and that was hard work and that was something right. But someone who played college basketball, somebody who plays professional basketball, you know what.

Speaker 2:

Their road to basketball success and glory was more challenging than mine. They had to be more engaged than me, like there was a degree of difficulty to their experience that does deserve a level of recognition and honor. That doesn't dishonor or diminish my experience. It just means that's a big deal. It doesn't mean I'm not a big deal. It means what happened for you, how that was, how that impacted you, the things you're proud of, the things you're glad you accomplished All of those things are true and they can be honored as well. And I think that it's that idea of for me to look at Aaron and say, man, I am exhausted, I'm so tired, but also to look at Aaron and be like, and you know what, if I'm feeling tired, I know you're feeling tired too, because I know that there's a little bit higher degree of difficulty because of your embodied experience that you're taking on. I think that that's all. No one's diminished in that, I don't think.

Speaker 1:

Sure. So I think and maybe like the way you're describing that, like that is a block for me, if I'm being honest. Like like that, like the high school, versus maybe it's not a perfect one?

Speaker 2:

no, I don't know.

Speaker 1:

I'm not trying to say it should be, but what I mean to say is like somehow that speaks to you and it always has it makes sense to me, I know but which is, I think, all that matters, because and I yeah, and I don't- know Non-default parent.

Speaker 2:

does it make sense to you, or does it not? Maybe that's something I've just personally used to help me try to connect with what you're saying.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and then also default parents speak to this too. I'm genuinely interested, but I do think, from at least the ones we've spoken to and myself, I don't think any of us are after say it's harder.

Speaker 2:

Tell me it's harder for me.

Speaker 1:

I think it's just like say you see the difference. Like say you see that this is like cellular for me.

Speaker 1:

Say you see that, like I don't have the luxury of ever turning this off in a way that it seems sometimes you can, or say like, say you see the difference, and not say you say I don't think I need and I don't think I think, if we feel respected and truly known in that place, I don't care how difficult I'm not looking for, like, oh, you're D1 basketball right now and I think that that is when there's clear communication and when there's not resentment and when these places have been repaired.

Speaker 2:

I think that that can be the case. I think so much of the conversation around all of this is when there's injury. Yes, it's taken when there's still injury, when there's still resentment and there is a little bit of languaging of like no, you bet, like yeah, you better say this is harder, and or or like what you're doing and even as close, and I and I and I think that those, those kinds of um languaging are really reflective of that would be the case if you didn't feel resolved around these kinds of things.

Speaker 1:

I think that is spot on, and I think that that's actually a really good cue to know where you and your partner are, because if you do feel like and not that it has to be like if you feel like you want them to say it's more difficult, you must not be resolved. I don't mean it like that exactly. I think what I mean is like it does maybe indicate, though, like we should talk about this. Yeah, it does maybe indicate, though, like we should talk about this yeah.

Speaker 1:

And in a way like Todd and Maria are about to.

Speaker 2:

That's right. That's right Because I think at the core of that resentment there's a feeling for the embodied partner, the default parent. There's a feeling of not being respected, a feeling of being taken advantage of. Yes, you just want me to do all of these things, plus this and being dismissed.

Speaker 2:

Totally, or being misnamed like oh, you're just so needy, or you're so and I think that that non-default parent oftentimes comes back and says well, I feel disrespected, I feel dismissed and yes, but so if that's true, if there is any disrespect, dismissal, criticism, feeling taken advantage of, this is an important conversation for you.

Speaker 2:

It means that there is a big gap an embodied chasm between you and your partner in terms of understanding this difference Right and your partner feeling that you have heard the depth of what this embodied and oftentimes I mean this beautiful embodied experience, but also really challenging embodied experiences has been like.

Speaker 1:

Totally. I think at the core is know me. And if you say no, my experience has been exactly the same and it's hard for me to. And you're, you know, you're sort of um defending counter-attacking.

Speaker 2:

I, I, my experience is I'll never be known, or or uh, an equal defensiveness of no, what you do doesn't matter what you do isn't as important. No, I like. I think that that is how there's this kind of dual defensiveness that comes out. Oh, no question.

Speaker 1:

And, honestly, not that it makes it okay, but it is understandable. You're going to dismiss one of the most core pieces of who I am in this season of my life. I'm going to dismiss you too, and not that. That's an actual thought, and not that that's okay, no, it isn't. But I mean that should be the indicator Like something's wrong.

Speaker 2:

Something needs attention here, something needs some tending to Right, and so Todd and Maria, so you know what, we've thankfully been able to sit down with them a little bit. They grabbed the book in the new year. They read through it. They said, oh man, we, we really want to they listen to it on a road. Yeah, yeah, we want to sit down and talk with steven and aaron about this a little bit and and see what they have to say. And you know, we've chatted, we've, we've gone through, you know, these wonderful, amazing points that we've brought up in this podcast and they, you know they, they really feel like they're a little bit better place and so they're able to. After, after this, you know uh conversation that they had, after uh leaving Derek and Rachel's house um, you know, todd, he, he approaches Maria and he says I love that Todd approaches Maria every time I I think that's vital.

Speaker 2:

I love it, I think it's, it's I. I did that one on purpose because I do think that this is the very beginning of starting the process of doing the thing that that will build a bridge across that embodiment chasm, and it is the non-default partner coming to the default partner, the embodied partner, in approaching this.

Speaker 1:

I love it. Go ahead All right.

Speaker 2:

Todd approaches Maria hey, so that conversation did not go in the direction I thought it was going. In fact, I was really surprised and I didn't like being compared to Derek. I don't think I'm that kind of dad and it was frustrating. Actually, it hurt my feelings to hear you say that I'm like him.

Speaker 1:

Maria responds Todd, of course you are not a dad like Derek. I wasn't making a one-to-one comparison. I get you not wanting to be compared to him. I don't think you are. You're a great dad. What I was trying to communicate is that there are some things about my experience as a mom that you do miss, and in missing that, you miss knowing and understanding me. It's not just a small misunderstanding.

Speaker 2:

It feels really core, todd. Okay, so this is really hard for me to piece together. You were saying we have had a very hurtful misunderstanding, but that this does not mean you think I'm a disengaged, uninvolved dad.

Speaker 1:

Maria says yes, you're a great dad, you're a great husband, and there has been a chasm in your understanding of my experience as a parent, and it's been hurtful. They're both true.

Speaker 2:

Todd, okay, you do see how that is hard for me to wrap my head around and doesn't really feel that positive.

Speaker 1:

Maria. Yes, but I'm glad we're even saying these things. You know, talking about this even feels positive.

Speaker 2:

Todd All right, so it seems that I'm an awesome dad and husband, but also I'm not perfect and there are some things about when you had Peyton that I missed and not just little things but big things about that period of life, and it would help if I could talk with you more about this and try and understand.

Speaker 1:

Todd, that is exactly what I want, and hearing you say those things is the very thing that makes you different than all the Derricks out there. I really do feel understood by you right now. Thanks for coming back and sticking to this conversation.

Speaker 2:

And so I think in that is the key. Neither partner has to be diminished, Neither partner. There doesn't have to be a competition.

Speaker 1:

I will say it right now If necessarily one partner has to be diminished, you are set on the wrong course.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Because everybody's experience matters. It has to that we're a partnership. We all want healthy family life, one, but also healthy partnerships, this healthy relationship, and that means two healthy people, which means our experiences necessarily both matter.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and for me, just as the non-default parent like a helpful rubric for me is, I get to honor the degree of difficulty that being pregnant and having kids has introduced into your life in a way that is unique and special and meaningful. Absolutely that's what I get to do, like that's.

Speaker 1:

I cannot imagine a partner hearing so me, I cannot imagine hearing that I believe every single thing Stephen just said, because one that is not the first time he said it and I feel it Like I experience that I believe every single thing Stephen just said, because one that is not the first time he said it and I feel it, I experience that, I see it in action. There are those words of validation, but also our experiences match that and they haven't always perfectly, so I feel the difference.

Speaker 2:

It took a little bit to get there, yeah.

Speaker 1:

We walk you through that in the book too. That's right, and I know for a fact that in that process of us trying to get there, I diminished you that I said, oh, that's so meaningful what you thought you just said.

Speaker 2:

The resentment was strong, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

But I cannot imagine so the flip side of that is someone hearing their partner say I see it Like, oh my goodness, this is profoundly costly and beautiful and you're doing it and I'm proud of you and I'm thankful for you and really, really trying to bridge that embodiment chasm and having their partner be like and it is harder, like I cannot imagine the response or that reaction being somehow to dismiss or invalidate.

Speaker 2:

I just Unless there's a lot of hurt and resentment, right.

Speaker 1:

Or if it feels inauthentic Right which. I think would be like it might take some time.

Speaker 2:

Right, it's going to take some time and I think I would add to that as the non-default parent or partner to say like, to say like, and when I miss it, when I miss that unique degree of difficulty or when I say something or do something that indicates that maybe I miss it, I invite you to point it out. I'm going to be paying attention, I'm going to be trying to be aware of it, but if I miss it, I want to know, because I don't want you to think that I'm trying to be paying attention. I'm going to be trying to be aware of it, but if I miss it, I want to know.

Speaker 2:

Because, I don't want you to think that I'm trying to do that on purpose, because it is going to happen.

Speaker 1:

There will be misses, but this is when vulnerability matches vulnerability, because if I believe that Stephen wants to know that the way I approach that's going to be like this was a Derek Like that felt like- Just call me was a Derek Like that felt like just call me and I, and the way we'll do it is I'll be like just call me Derek when it happens and honestly, well, we're that way, I think a lot of people would not appreciate being called that works.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't sound good to them. And for all of the Derek's out there, I'm so sorry. You're great, we're so sorry, I'm sorry. I had to pick a name that's right. Pictures.

Speaker 1:

But I do think it's like oh, if I feel like you want to know, I feel like my approach can be soft, I feel like my approach can be like I'm expecting your vulnerability, so of course I'll bring like a hey, this didn't feel quite right, and that is me assuming your best intentions with my best intentions, and that generally means you will come back with like whoa, not what I meant. Help me understand or like yep. I see it like whoa, not what.

Speaker 1:

I meant Help me understand. Or like yep, I see it, like I don't. I no need to explain, I see you.

Speaker 2:

And so, for all you couples out there, how Truly all of you, couples. All of you. There's not a couple that doesn't have to deal with this. How has your relationship been impacted by the embodiment chasm? Been impacted by the embodiment chasm? How have you and your partner talked about this or struggled to?

Speaker 1:

talk about it.

Speaker 2:

How can you take a lesson from what Todd and Maria have done, which is to first of all express that there is a chasm, but then also, from Todd's perspective, to acknowledge it and approach in a curious way Maria, and for Maria to respond in a vulnerable but also gracious way, accepting way, in terms of like I accept you starting this conversation.

Speaker 2:

Have y'all been through that process? If you haven't, what are the barriers that you're experiencing and how can you move from where you are to where Todd and Maria are? And I think that one of the ways to do is like maybe it's listening to this podcast with your partner together and kind of stumbling through the conversation together.

Speaker 2:

Maybe we have a chapter in our book I forget which one it is about this. Maybe it's going through that chapter. We talk about this a lot. Maybe it's helpful to have some facilitation. We can talk with you and your partner about it. But the thing is is the embodiment chasm needs to be addressed.

Speaker 1:

Or there will be a level of unknowing. It's just true.

Speaker 2:

And a level of disconnection that you don't want in your relationship, and so this really is an opportunity to step into a difficult conversation, a potentially conflictual conversation, but to do so in a way that brings you connection. Hey, before we wrap up today, we want to remind you that conflict isn't the enemy of a healthy relationship. It's actually the path to deeper connection.

Speaker 1:

And that's exactly what we explore in our book. Too Tired to Fight. In the book, we break down the 13 essential conflicts that every couple needs to have to keep their relationship strong. We guide you through each one, showing you how to move from feeling stuck in endless arguments to using those moments as a chance to connect and grow stronger together.

Speaker 2:

Whether you're struggling with feeling like the default parent navigating in-laws, or just trying to be understood by your partner, Too Tired to Fight, gives you the tools to turn those pain points into connection points.

Speaker 1:

If you want to dive deeper into what we've been discussing on the podcast, the book is a great companion. It's filled with real-life examples, practical strategies and step-by-step guidance on how to have those essential conflicts without feeling like banging your head against the wall with the same fight over and over.

Speaker 2:

So, if you're ready to stop fighting and start connecting, you can grab your copy of Too Tired to Fight on our website, amazon or wherever you get books. And remember every conflict is just an opportunity waiting to be turned into connection.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2:

Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.