Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
The Death of Defensiveness: How to end the cycle of defensiveness in your couple relationship
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Defensiveness can be a significant roadblock in relationships, particularly among parenting partners. The episode delves into how defensiveness complicates communication, using the example of Kylie and Leslie and their conflict over forgotten pasta. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP emphasize leading with accountability and following up with vulnerability as crucial steps towards breaking the cycle of defensiveness. Here's what we cover in the episode:
- Analysis of a scenario involving Kylie and Leslie stuck in a defensive cycle and looking for answers on how to end the cycle
- Understand why defensiveness often arises as a protective mechanism
- The Two Step process for ending defensiveness in your relationship
- We differentiate between simple apologies and true relationship repair
- Sample script on how to have the conversation with your partner
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Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents, a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken.
Speaker 2:Here are our parents, our dad Dr Stephen Mitchell and our mom Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 1:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell and we are excited to be with you today. I have exciting news. On last week's show, I said that it was our 89th or 88th episode and we're heading to 100 episodes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I miscounted Last show was our 89th episode and this show is our 90th episode. Big deal, big stinking deal 10 away from 100.
Speaker 2:Also, we had a great suggestion for what to do for our 100th. We would like to do like a question answer caller questions. You know, you present the scenario, you ask us your question, whatever but, like more interactive, where you submit to us questions. You have things you've been thinking about.
Speaker 1:And we'll just kind of do a hundredth episode.
Speaker 2:I honestly thought you were going to say we're going to do a hundred, a hundred scenarios where we respond to your questions, to your um.
Speaker 1:Obviously we won't be able to do all of them, but we would love to you know, take a what a compilation of them yeah, usually there's some um overlap and themes.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's right, and so um keep an eye out on instagram and in your newsletter and in our yep and and if you're not part of the newsletter, please we will post a link in our Instagram as well that will allow you to subscribe to the newsletter. Get on our mailing list so that you can interact with us around our 100th episode and ask your questions that you might have.
Speaker 2:Also for any of the questions that we don't get to in the 100th episode we can use for later episodes.
Speaker 1:No, that's it. There's just no way that we can-, we always love-. It's that or nothing.
Speaker 2:To talk about the things that you want to hear about. So we would love to hear those anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes it more powerful. Also, you know what, if you like this podcast and it's useful, to you, which I think I'm just assuming it is. Since you're listening to this right now, please recommend it to your friends. We I have a little personal goal, little personal goal.
Speaker 1:I want to get to 20,000 subscribers for our podcast in the next three to six months. That's a little goal I'm putting out there. We're at like 12,000 right now, so I want to get it to 20, just because that seems like a nice even number. But recommend it, you know, tell people that you like it if you find it useful, and then also, I think, coming in like y'all might be able to hear it. Erin has been a little sick.
Speaker 2:Still. In fact, I think this started last week on the podcast. I think it's when I was like, yeah, I'm not feeling my best.
Speaker 1:I would say this weekend was one of the worst nights of sleep that I can remember in recent history, because you were so sick, feeling awful.
Speaker 2:Sure, due to sickness, and not kid sickness, my own personal sickness, just due to your own sickness, agreed you?
Speaker 1:were like up all night.
Speaker 2:It was pretty rough yeah.
Speaker 1:I felt. I felt really sad for you, yes, and helpless as to do anything to make things feel better.
Speaker 2:Well, this is not what this episode is about. However, I do think that having an episode on the default parent being sick could be an entire thing, because I felt very supported, and that has not always been the case.
Speaker 1:You heard it here today Everyone, erin Ann, felt supported by the non-default parent, ie Steven.
Speaker 2:The next morning I was like, oh, I was not in a lucid state, you really weren't. You were feeling pretty rough.
Speaker 1:But feeling a little bit better.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling a lot better, at least well enough to do podcasts. Yeah, have normal thoughts. I do believe my thoughts are my own at this point.
Speaker 1:Yes, Good to, yeah, have normal thoughts. I do believe my thoughts are my own at this point, yes, good, um, so today we wanted to talk about defensiveness, and the reason that is on our mind is because I there. It is, without question, one of the most common things that we hear between parenting partners and couples that we work with that one partner tries to express something or expresses how they feel about something, and it's usually some kind of feedback about the other partner, like I don't like that, you did this or you said this, and then that partner responds with defensiveness and that can flip flop between partners. It doesn't really matter, but defensiveness crushes a relationship, and so today I like and I just go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, one thing you just said and I think we're going to talk more about this a little bit later in the show too, but it isn't always feedback- I think a lot of the times. You just said a lot of the times.
Speaker 1:So my defense is defensiveness is about your feedback.
Speaker 2:So. But sometimes it is right Like so. Sometimes it is like, hey, I didn't like what you did, and then you get defensive. And I'm not saying meet you, because I get defensive too, but the but a lot of the time it's just one person trying to share. I think that's when it begins to feel like I'm just not supposed to have an experience because, somehow this is going to negatively impact you and we're going to end up talking about you when I was just trying to share something.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And I think that is one of the critical pieces of how defensiveness crushes a relationship.
Speaker 1:That is a very good, lucid thought from Aaron.
Speaker 2:First one since last week.
Speaker 1:Good, I think that's a good addendum to what I was saying. It isn't always about feedback, but I do think I've just been thinking about this I don't know the last couple of weeks, because I feel like we've been talking about it over and over so.
Speaker 1:I wanted to bring it up and really I do think that their defensiveness this is how you achieve the death of defensiveness in your parenting partner relationship Defensiveness does not have to be a part of your communication with your partner. There is a way for it to be not, or at least when it comes up, it doesn't have to be a barrier. There's a way to navigate around it. So I just think it's an important topic. It comes up a lot, so that's what we're going to jump into.
Speaker 2:It's a very important topic.
Speaker 1:And so today's couple, kylie and Leslie they're a couple just like me and you out there in the world, and we're going to give a little case scenario of something that they're, um, they're dealing with, that they're running into, um, and so Kylie and Leslie uh, they seem to always find themselves in this standoff. Kylie was supposed to stop by the grocery store on the way home from work and pick up a key ingredient for the pasta Leslie was going to make for dinner, the key ingredient being pasta. They had a great plan. Kylie would get the pasta, stop by the house and drop it off as Leslie rolled in from work. So Kylie's coming from work with the pasta Leslie's rolling in from work, leslie would start cooking and Kylie would go and pick up the kids from their. With the pasta Leslie's rolling in from work, leslie would start cooking and Kylie would go and pick up the kids from their afterschool sports. And by the time Kylie and the kids got back home, dinner would be on the table and the night would be off to like a beautiful, beautiful start, because people are fed. Nobody's cranky. It was a great plan. It really was.
Speaker 1:Now there was no food because no one had any time to get groceries in the last couple of days. So, like Kylie, stopping by and getting the pasta was really key because it wasn't just like there could be a quick audible by not having the pasta. So you can imagine what's happened. Kylie has forgotten the pasta. The kids have come home, there's no food.
Speaker 1:Leslie's trying to figure out what to do and a conversation like this takes place. Leslie says Kylie, I am so tired of you forgetting to follow through with little details like this and the whole family being negatively impacted. Now we don't have dinner and now I'm going to have to figure out some fix for what to do while you pick up the kids. My fix was that you would get the pasta before you came home. This is so annoying. Kylie bristles. So everything I do has some kind of negative impact on the family, like going to work and doing all the drop-offs and pickups, and everything I do just brings our family down. That seems a little dramatic, leslie. Leslie feels the anger rising, dramatic.
Speaker 1:Kylie, you forgot the pasta. How about you just admit you forgot it? And now that creates a problem for me. Is it so dramatic to want you to actually acknowledge? Your actions have consequences. You get so defensive every time you might have to take some accountability for something. You know what. Kylie, it's great your forgetting. The pasta isn't a big deal. I'm just an endless reservoir of dinner ideas and don't have a job and other things that I have to think about. I'm so sorry for being dramatic.
Speaker 1:And well, there you have it the complete breakdown in a couple relationship over pasta and generally that's what it is these little things that turn into something really big. But I don't know, Did you hear any defensiveness in that exchange?
Speaker 2:There was quite a bit of defensiveness, wasn't there? I think the one thing and maybe this is just personal, but when Leslie said Kylie, I'm so tired of you forgetting to follow through- right I think a lot of times, especially as this um fight or conflict ages, the leslie's in that moment stop saying anything um verbally.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of non-verbals that happen, like again, I'm thinking of myself like my most angry isn't? I don't say anything, I'm very quiet, but I'm very loud in every other possible way, and I think that this is because we have to have something Like you know, we're creating a scenario, so it's not like you can be like and then Leslie said nothing.
Speaker 1:And that doesn't communicate much, but that could also be a response.
Speaker 2:I'm saying that like that. Yes, sometimes there is that big verbal something and then sometimes there isn't. I think that part is significantly less.
Speaker 1:Clear. I think that just depends on who you are and how you yes, and where you are.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, but I do think it's just a whole cycle of hurt frankly, yeah, yeah, and I think that you know so on some level.
Speaker 1:Right, this could look pretty straightforward, like so Kylie forgot the pasta. So just say, yep, I forgot the pasta. My bad, like move on. But I think that defensiveness is always about so much more. There's always a story behind what's happening in that defensiveness and that doesn't like I think we'll just blanketly say being defensive like just in terms of like a communication strategy and in terms of like relationships, not the most helpful thing. What we're talking about is there's a reason for defensiveness, but defensiveness is not really useful.
Speaker 2:In a healthy relationship Right right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, in a healthy relationship, unless you can note that, hey, the defensiveness is happening, and then that can help you understand.
Speaker 1:Okay, there's more to it which you know what you know spoiler alert Kylie and Leslie are going to be able to get there. That's what's going to happen. That's what's going to happen for them. You know and again you know. Thankfully we've been able to, you know, chat with them and work with them on this, and so they're going to get there. But I think that defensiveness usually, I think on a basic level, is about what I would say is just protection 100%.
Speaker 2:Yes, I agree completely.
Speaker 1:Protecting.
Speaker 2:I think that's exactly right. So I think that is very story dependent. So depending on the history that you have, because you and I both can be defensive in different moments.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:But for very different reasons.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I think that I'm going to guess here, so correct away, that the reason I think you get defensive is because when my feelings are hurt, I do come um I.
Speaker 1:I get really self-protected and hurt feelings I don't like having them because of my story, but I come out big and strong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but not with like I don't come out strong with.
Speaker 1:I'm so hurt I come out strong with like you hurt me, so like very understandably you would get defensive.
Speaker 2:I think I get defensive because I feel like I'm working really hard.
Speaker 1:I feel really misunderstood, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't. I have a history of feeling misunderstood. That doesn't um feel good for me. It makes me feel like you don't even care about the context.
Speaker 1:Right. So I think for our stories, like when you come, when you come in strong, like that, what happens for me is I get defensive because I'm feeling rejected. I think when you feel defensive it's because you feel misunderstood and you feel judged, because I think like I can be critical and judgmental and unknown.
Speaker 2:Right Like you're assuming my worst, like I can be critical and unknown. And right like you're assuming my worst, like I'm giving my best.
Speaker 1:So if you notice in that there's there's a protective aspect to that, there's a feeling of, like my partner is is not getting what's happening for me and so I have to defend my self myself, like self.
Speaker 2:There I mean what is true of me. I think this would be an important sort of stop point asterisk in the podcast, which one seems to thematically, because both of them are true for probably most people.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I feel rejected.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you feel misunderstood, but thematically probably, which one happens for you more?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like what's your like kind of? Yeah, I get how you're like generalizing those kind of two ideas, but also like maybe you have a different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 1:Maybe your connection to your, what kind of activates that defensive cycle within you? Like, what is it Like? Think about it. Yes, I think that's really important to know.
Speaker 2:And what do you think you were trying to protect?
Speaker 1:And so that this is the thing, that, that where I can hear people saying it right now in their minds oh so, just because Steven or just because Kylie is going gonna feel like they're getting um rejected, um, I shouldn't say anything. I, I should, I should just be totally cool. Leslie should be totally cool with kylie for getting the pasta, because you know, hey, she doesn't want kylie to feel rejected. I, I think I could hear people say that, oh, 100 and and that's%, and that's not what we're saying, and I think that Explanations.
Speaker 2:How many times have I said this Explanations are never excuses. They can't be. But we also will never find change or connection without explanations, without understanding these places and each other. But the reason we want to understand what our own personal defensiveness is about is so we can have that opportunity in that moment to choose a response rather than reacting defensively.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So let's give a little bit. So defensiveness is generally about protecting the one who is being defensive. They're feeling a need to protect themselves. We'll make that point there. Now let me give you a little bit of backstory on what was happening for Kylie I already don't want it On this day.
Speaker 2:If I'm Leslie, I'm like you can keep your backstory. All I want is my pasta Right and an apology.
Speaker 1:I get that I want's my pasta right and an apology I get that I get that um, serve me up some pasta and apology, so, but let me. Let me give just a little background on kylie so that we can keep on unraveling this or unwrapping. Unraveling feels like something negative, so we can unwrap this, not unravel it.
Speaker 2:I think those feel the same to me.
Speaker 1:Really I think if something's unraveling, that's like negative, like if we're unwrapping something. Yeah, it's more like oh, what's in there? Oh, it's like a gift, like a present.
Speaker 2:I think something coming unraveled is different from let's unravel this Untangle. Whatever, go ahead.
Speaker 1:I'm sure this is a necessary conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so here's some backstory on Kylie. What Leslie doesn't know is that Kylie did try and plan ahead to get the pasta. In fact, kylie knows she forgets things like this and it makes it hard on Leslie. Kylie knows she forgets things like this and it makes it hard on Leslie. So while she was at work she decided to try and put in a grocery order pasta included to help Leslie out and to make sure the family was set for food for the week Pause. What To help Leslie out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no To fulfill her responsibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Strike the word help what Erin said, so she was going to put do this.
Speaker 2:It matters, words matter. I agree I agree, it matters.
Speaker 1:I'm with you, I'm not Thank you. Thank you for that lucid correction. But as Kylie was doing that, as she was doing this, her boss came in and let her know that their company was in the final stages of being acquired, which obviously Kylie knew about. But what she didn't know about is that part of that was that her job now was in question. There were going to be some layoffs and her job was kind of one of those that they were considering maybe cutting. And so Kylie has this conversation with her boss and they take a little more time to explore it. And after she gets out of that conversation she realizes oh no, I've got to go, I've got to go get the kids and do all that stuff. And so Kylie was surprised and worried, was surprised and worried and she forgot to complete the grocery order and get the pasta and all of that happened. So that's a little bit of the backstory.
Speaker 1:Now back to what is going to bring the death of defensiveness in your parenting partner relationship, and I'm going to give you a little mantra. I'm going to give you a little formula, because I know everybody likes a formula out there. This is how you stop defensiveness from getting in the way. In your parenting partner relationship, you lead with accountability and you follow up with vulnerability. This is what I mean by that and we're kind of back to that idea of like oh so I can't say what my experience was, because Kylie's going to end up feeling some kind of way in her story and I shouldn't say Leslie's saying I shouldn't say that I'm upset.
Speaker 2:I think it's beyond that. I think the Lesleys in these scenarios feel like I'm not allowed to be upset about anything. I just have to make sure that the Kileys are just feeling safe and like no big deal. Yeah, oh, you're just helping me out. And like okay, it didn't work out.
Speaker 1:Let's also notice Leslie got a little defensive too. Oh, she sure did.
Speaker 2:I liked that part too.
Speaker 1:She. She got defensive too, and that's related to her story, which is, I mean, I think, kind of along the lines of she feels like she's working really hard, doing a lot, has a lot on her plate, and then she feels that she's being told she's dramatic for caring.
Speaker 2:Also, let's like really imagine what happened for her.
Speaker 1:Let's do it.
Speaker 2:So that was. It was like the critical ingredient, like you don't have pasta without pasta, right. And so so she asks for it to like she. She says like you do that you got that, you're coming home, you're passing the store or whatever. Whatever that made the most sense, it doesn't really matter, but in her mind she's already like no.
Speaker 1:I'll be lucky if this, if this works, yes.
Speaker 2:And that, I think, is one a significant part of invisible labor, because, like and this is how you get the couples who have the like it's worse when I ask for help it's worse to like trust you to do something. This is how you get the really honestly the cruel comments of um. The cruel comments, but the real feeling of you're just another kid that I'm supposed to be trying to take Like oh yeah, you're right, I should have sent you a text message to remind you.
Speaker 2:I should whatever, but yes but she's already like it's probably not going to happen, I should expect to be disappointed. And then she is, and she's so hurt. Right and she's being told she's dramatic for being hurt, For being hurt by something that ugh it is hurtful, yeah, it is hurtful, yeah, it's hurtful.
Speaker 1:So so both partners get defensive. They just do it a little differently. They do it.
Speaker 2:Their stories also get critical right.
Speaker 1:Their stories like lead them to go in different directions, about why and how they get defensive, but so leading with accountability, there is a simple fact Kylie forgot the pasta. She was asked to get the pasta. She forgot to get the pasta.
Speaker 2:I think the accountability so I think the real way of taking accountability for that is because, also, she didn't forget it.
Speaker 1:True.
Speaker 2:But she didn't get it, she didn't follow through.
Speaker 1:Right, she didn't follow through, she didn't get it and I think the accountability in this is acknowledging that that does cost and impact Leslie period. I forgot the. I didn't get the positive. Now, could there be a good reason? Sure, but that's not part of this. The accountability is I didn't do what I said I was going to do, and because of that, you now are put in a bad position.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think that so what I liked about your formula is what you said was lead with accountability and follow up with vulnerability, because in between those steps is a whole conversation.
Speaker 1:A whole story, right, right yeah.
Speaker 2:And so that's where we are. We're with the leading, with accountability where it's. I did the thing Right. It impacted you in the way, and then there's a whole pause between, but let me tell you why.
Speaker 1:Right, and so this is where I think that what blocks leading with accountability for many partners is the discussion about intent. So did Kylie intend to forget the pasta and make Leslie's life miserable? Absolutely not. Did Kylie forget to get the pasta and did it cost Leslie and the family? Absolutely, and I think that what happens is, rather than leading with accountability, is about acknowledging that the thing that your partner said happened happened and the impact that your partner is saying it had on them is the impact it had not. Saying I see this, but, and then going into intent but I didn't mean for it to, but you know what? There were a bunch of things that happened Like I didn't like.
Speaker 2:This makes me think of the book, our book, the Too Tired to Fight book, where we talk about in any healthy interaction, you're going to want to explain yourself yourself, defend yourself, protect yourself. You use whatever word you want to use and different situations call for different um things I don't always feel the need to defend myself, but sometimes I'm like, oh I wish I could explain right um, and, and there needs to be a time for that right, I think part of healthy communication is a genuine curiosity about each other and ourselves.
Speaker 2:But but there has to be and this is in the conflict of connection equation a suspension of that, because there is a time and a place and if you try to offer that before it's welcome, wanted and really able to be heard, you're setting yourself up to be hurt by that. Make room for me make room for me Like no, not I want to. I want the answer to that to be yes, but if you're demanding it now, it feels like you're forcing, it feels like a fake apology.
Speaker 1:Well and so, yes, in our book we do have the conflict to connection equation. We do address defensiveness. One of the steps is to suspend your defensiveness. Suspend your defensiveness and this really here is like sub points a, b, like to that portion of the equation to the partner who is intentionally listening to their partner. So this is a great addendum to that to support it. So actually keep that in mind. But I think that. So this is what this conversation looks like to lead with accountability and then to follow up with vulnerability, because it is important for Kylie to be able to tell her experience and her story and what happened.
Speaker 2:And presumably and this is almost universally true with all the couples we've ever worked with, I'm like really trying to see it. People want to know, it's not like me as a partner is like I don't.
Speaker 1:I genuinely don't want to know what happened for you there is a time and a place, and when.
Speaker 2:I feel open and even able to hear that but, of course I want to know and, of course opposite, I want you to know me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Opposite, I want you to know me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. So what would this conversation look like? How could the defensiveness stop? What would Kylie need to say? How could Leslie interact? Here we go I'll be Kylie, you be Leslie, we'll do that. We'll read that, okay. So Kylie comes to Leslie and she says hey, I got defensive and then called you dramatic. I know that was not the right thing to say. I'm sorry. I said that. I also do know that me forgetting the pasta put extra work and strain on you.
Speaker 2:Thanks, kylie. I just don't know what to do and say in those moments when that kind of stuff happens. It feels like all the planning I tried to do to make things simpler goes right out the window. It makes me feel like you're unreliable. And then I have to do everything by myself and that feels like extra work and even more overwhelming. It makes me angry.
Speaker 1:Now Kylie has an opportunity to get defensive again here. Now Kylie has an opportunity to get defensive again here. She can latch on to Leslie saying she's unreliable and then start building an argument for how she comes through all the time, and so on and so on, and this would basically just end them right back up where they started. But Kylie is leading with accountability. She's remembering what Aaron and I talked with them about in session.
Speaker 2:She's remembering this and she's leading with accountability, not getting into defensiveness, and so she says this and by remembering that, I mean honestly, in real time, even in our conversations, like I'm literally, like it's going through my brain, like I said, we've talked about this, I think, but like it's going through my brain, like I said, we've talked about this, I think, but like I see the words in my brain. Like it's like accountability, accountability. Like now is the time for accountability. Like I will follow up with vulnerability, but right now, accountability accountability.
Speaker 1:And so, kylie, she says I get it. Leslie, I wasn't reliable today and you had to do more work to figure out dinner. I understand why that would make you angry. It is frustrating and I know what will allow that to feel. Different is that if I'm more reliable when it comes to remembering things, that's good.
Speaker 2:I just want to like say that's good, because everything that Kylie just did there was say the things that Leslie said really hurt, yeah, okay. Leslie says yeah, that would help Kylie.
Speaker 1:can I tell you a little about what happened today and what was behind some of my defensiveness when I got home, Not as an excuse, but just so you know what was happening for me. This is now Kylie transitioning into following up with vulnerability.
Speaker 2:And here's a moment for Leslie right Like so. Kylie just asked her that Leslie needs to only say yes if she feels soft enough to be able to respect what is going to be shared. Because it isn't.
Speaker 1:We have to be honest with ourselves, and so it might be, leslie might be like Of course I want to know that I'm mad right now.
Speaker 2:Like I honestly don't think I could handle that right now. But like, let's eat and then I'll circle back, or as in this case, or she's like Leslie says. Yes, sure.
Speaker 1:So then Kylie says I know I forget stuff and that makes more work for you. So I was trying to do things a little different and was putting in a grocery order with pasta and was just going to have it all delivered this afternoon. Then Joan came in my office and started talking about potential layoffs once we get acquired and my job is one of the ones that might get cut. So we ended up talking about that for a while and then it was time for me to leave work and I was really distracted by the conversation and forgot what I was doing before Joan came in. So when I realized I had forgot the pasta, I felt embarrassed.
Speaker 2:Kylie, I'm so sorry that happened. What'd she say?
Speaker 1:I'll tell you, but I don't want that to be an excuse. I still forgot the pasta and know that that cost you.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I also know you didn't do it on purpose. In fact, you were trying to make sure to remember and then you got that dropped on you. I get it. We weren't just meant to have pasta today. I am glad to know this part of your day. Now tell me more.
Speaker 1:So there it is you lead with accountability and if you notice, we pointed out, kylie had to work for that. She had to work to keep leading with accountability. There were a lot of moments where she could have deviated, but then also, it is important that Kylie is able to follow up with that vulnerability of, like the story, the part that she was feeling like she needed to protect. Yeah, so that Leslie can see the broader picture. And then Leslie had to do some work too, as you were saying.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think the Leslie's. In this situation, they are either going to continue to double down on the miss and the miss and the miss and the miss or stop saying anything.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Until that moment where Kylie or the Kylie's are able to say I get it.
Speaker 1:I was unreliable.
Speaker 2:I was unreliable. I was unreliable. It did cost you. Of course that hurts. Of course, like until, because there is a difference between an apology and repair.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's significant.
Speaker 1:Yes, and, and this is repair. This is repair. This isn't an apology. Yeah.
Speaker 2:An apology is like I'm really sorry, this isn't an apology. Yeah, An apology is like I'm really sorry.
Speaker 1:Cool Repair means you take accountability for how your actions impacted your partner, even if you didn't intend it. You're not arguing intent, you're intent, you're, you're taking accountability. Yes, what I did, what happened, impacted you, and then you're like taking further action to not repeat that, of course. But that's really really, really important to take that step of accountability.
Speaker 2:There was a moment in here where I would have known that you wrote this. No matter what, where Kylie says, I get it. Leslie, I wasn't reliable today.
Speaker 1:Where because the Stephens and the Kylie Because I'm not going to say I'm unreliable, yeah because Stephens is like I'm not. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm a reliable person, but you experienced my unreliability and I have to also acknowledge that. So it's this like I wasn't reliable. Today I get it and you had to do more work to figure out dinner. I think that that could. That's a conversation that must be had and addressed because it has to be, because that's true If you are being mischaracterized, you can't Because Kylie is really.
Speaker 1:Kylie wakes up and goes to work every day. Kylie picks up the kids. I mean, it's not. There are moments, and a lot of moments, where Kylie isn't reliable, but she's not blanketly, 100% unreliable, and so I think that and she's never going to say that.
Speaker 2:So if that is like the only way repair can happen. It's never going to happen Because she's never going to say something that's core, core to her, doesn't feel true of who she is.
Speaker 1:The leading with accountability is being accountable for the action that your partner is talking about and the impact of that action.
Speaker 2:Because the other thing that ends up happening with real and true, authentic repair here is that's not what Leslie wants, right? True, authentic repair here is. That's not what Leslie wants, right? Leslie probably is making a broader statement to try to get her point across. For impact For impact. That's right Like you have to hear me Like this actually matters. But once she feels heard, once she feels understood, once she feels like her hurt is really known and tended to, she can be like, yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Like of course you're not.
Speaker 2:Of course I wouldn't want you to say that. Of course I know that's not universally true, but there are some moments and we do need to actually do something here. I loved some of those things so much.
Speaker 1:So if you want to experience the death of defensiveness in your parenting partner relationship, You're really proud of that, aren't you?
Speaker 2:I really kind of like it, I can tell.
Speaker 1:I spent like I mean a lot of time trying to come up with that one.
Speaker 2:What I should have said is I understand why you like that.
Speaker 1:I really like it too.
Speaker 2:I think it is.
Speaker 1:It's catchy so the thing that will bring the death of defensiveness in your parenting partner relationship is for you to lead with accountability and follow up with vulnerability.
Speaker 1:And give as much space in between those two as is necessary. So how can you and your partner practice that formula in your conflict when you're both feeling defensiveness? What would it look like for you to lead with accountability? What would it look like for you to follow up with vulnerability? Don't worry about your partner. Don't tell them what you think it would look like for them to do.
Speaker 1:You know that's some good ideas for you Think about yourself in your conflict when you're feeling defensive. Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it, and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples, counseling for Parents, and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.