Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
I Need You to Stop Needing Me
Got a question, comment, or just want to drop some encouragement? Send us a text.
This episode addresses the often invisible burden carried by default caregivers like Tasha, who find themselves overwhelmed by both family and partner expectations. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP, delve into the mismatched needs that arise from these dynamics, frequently leading to misunderstandings and conflict. Through thoughtful discussion, we focus on the critical role of open communication and self-awareness in breaking free from outdated norms that perpetuate inequality. By examining how Tasha's partner, Paul, may inadvertently contribute to this imbalance, we highlight the need for intentionality and shared responsibility within family units.
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples, counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell, I'm Erin Mitchell and we are excited to be here with you today. But before we get into the show, before we get into helping you and your partner with your relationship, a few announcements. This is our 92nd episode. We are hitting 100 soon. Please send in your questions. We're going to do a kind of catch-all kind of Q&A.
Speaker 2:Send those to us through a DM. Subscribe to the newsletter. Send it to us in an email. We'd love for you to do that Also. For those of you out there, just want to let you know a few things that we do. We see couples and we see individuals. If you feel like you need some help with your relationships or your relationship with one another, we're happy to help. Also, we have a book called Too Tired to Fight. Don't be afraid to go to Amazon and get yourself a copy, or listen to the audio book, or buy from your local bookstore or go to your local. That is so true. Also, we have a membership called Partnerhood. You can find out all about it on our website, couplescounselingforparentscom. That is a community that we are creating of couples just like you to feel supported and to get more great educational content on how to have a healthy relationship. And then fun fact, some of y'all who are listening, you know that this is an audio podcast, but did you also know that this is a video podcast? You can check out this podcast on YouTube and see us in the flesh. You are looking for a little bit more. Those are all places that you can go, but on today's show.
Speaker 2:We wanted to talk about a common dynamic that seems to happen between parenting partners, and it's a dynamic that could be characterized by this phrase One partner looks at or feels like they want to say this to their partner I need you to stop needing me. So what we're going to do is we're going to give you a little little peek into the life of Paul and Tasha and y'all. They're dealing with this right now. They're they are dealing with this right now. They are dealing with this right now and we want to try to help them, and maybe you'll find yourself in Paul and Tasha's story. I don't know, maybe you need to hear this, but we're going to get into it and see if we can't help them work through this scenario.
Speaker 2:Paul and Tasha have a busy, full, wonderful life. Paul works full-time and Tasha works full-time. They also have three kids. Paul is an engaged dad who by no means leaves parenting up to Tasha, but Tasha still fills the role of default parent. She's the first parent the kids express their needs to. I need new shoes. I need you to fill out this form for school. Can we get a new video game? What are we having for dinner? I can't find my shoes for dance. Where are they? And so on and so on. Tasha is also the first person Paul expresses his needs to man. Today was a brutal day at work. We should have the Turners over for dinner. Do you know where we put the grocery bags? Hey, we should spend some time together this weekend.
Speaker 2:In so many ways, tasha feels like her life is an ever-flowing stream of needs from her family being expressed and a mountain of expectations that those needs be met. This experience is overwhelming for Tasha and there are moments when it causes conflict between her and Paul, conflict like this, paul. Hey, tasha, where'd you put the grocery bags? Tasha, I don't know Paul. Maybe if you went grocery shopping every once in a while, you would know Paul. Whoa? Well, I'm asking you because I'm going to go to the grocery store, tasha. Great, paul, am I supposed to be super grateful that you're going to the store? While you do that, I'm going to plan dinner tonight, help the kids with their homework and do everyone's laundry.
Speaker 2:Paul, what is your deal, tasha? Why are you so grumpy, tasha? Paul, I'm grumpy because it's Saturday. I had a terrible week of work. The kids have a billion things they need for me, which, honestly, is fine because they're kids. And then there's you, just adding one more thing, one more need to the list, paul. I just asked where the grocery bags were so I could help you out. Tasha, tasha, it's that, paul. Is that oblivious statement that makes me angry? You don't even get how you add to the constant stream of needs that get dumped on me. You don't even see that everyone comes to me for what they need, but I have nowhere to go with my needs. You're just adding to the burden rather than being a part of carrying the burden. Oh man, this feels. I feel nervous just reading this. Why, stephen?
Speaker 3:Why are you doing this? I don't know.
Speaker 2:I don't know, but I feel nervous because Tasha seems really upset and Paul seems to not understand what's going on.
Speaker 3:The way we see this happening most of the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what's going, like what is going on here.
Speaker 3:There's a relationship with needs that is mismatched.
Speaker 2:So wait, there's a relationship with needs that's mismatched. Like say more about that.
Speaker 3:For them. They have a history of needs, what that meant to have a need, what their.
Speaker 2:You mean so individually? So, like Tasha has a relationship with what it meant for needs to be expressed, paul has a relationship with that as well. Yes, I agree. A history with needs like. What does that look like?
Speaker 3:Right? Well, I think for a lot of people, it looks a lot of different ways. In fact, I think there are as many histories of relationship with needs as there are people, but the reality is is that we all have one. So like, what emotions were you allowed to express? What needs were you allowed to have? What weren't you allowed to have?
Speaker 2:Did you have an experience of a parent who was like Well, so I think what you're talking to and I think a lot of family systems have rules around needs, exactly so, like, let's say, in my family, the rules around needs were you don't have them.
Speaker 3:I was going to say that too. Don't.
Speaker 2:Like don't, I don't, I just hold, I just keep it to myself. And so what that looks like in other relationships is like compulsively self-reliant.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, Like you've said to me, like Stephen, like I don't even know what you need, you never say you need anything and honestly, I think that what we have come to for ourselves, what we talked to couples about all the time, is there is very often not always, but there is very often one partner who's like well, yeah, all I really need is to feel like you're okay and that you're not criticizing me. You do you, I'll do me. That's the need, right.
Speaker 2:Well, and then maybe so let's say, somebody like Tasha might have a relationship with needs where it's like you're here to fulfill needs.
Speaker 3:Correct and I think that while this couple, Tasha Paul, you and me, we are mixed gender couple, this dynamic comes up where it does feel, like a lot of women, a lot of moms, a lot of these default parent moms experienced girls are supposed to be quiet. They're supposed to be easy. They're supposed to not have needs.
Speaker 2:You're supposed to be just supposed to meet everyone else's.
Speaker 3:That's correct. You're supposed to be for other people, yeah, and say that you're for other people.
Speaker 2:Yes, wow.
Speaker 3:And that was. That is a message I think a lot of current now moms, a message they heard.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Definitely a message I heard.
Speaker 2:And you need to be forecasting and predicting and knowing what everyone else's needs are at the expense of paying any attention to your own. And that is what and nobody else's either.
Speaker 3:to be clear Right. Now, for the record, I was raised by a single mom, and while my mom didn't mean to perpetuate that, she was a single mom, so she was also modeling, just-.
Speaker 1:Taking care of everyone's health.
Speaker 3:Yes, wow, working 100% of the time, while completely unnecessarily oh, that's a tricky word I'm going to have to put a big asterisk by that not having any herself. So I'm like oh yeah, that's what being a working mom means. You just do a bunch of stuff all the time, never stopping meeting other people's needs.
Speaker 3:But what I was going to say too, though, is that, even outside of that at school, that at school by um, it didn't have to just happen at home, for I think a lot of default parent moms to get this message Now again, we know that a lot of couples listening and we're so glad you are, that's not your dynamic, um, that you know like this doesn't have to be that messaging, but for a lot of it it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's worth stating yeah, yeah, so so and I think you were clear to say so like you know, this is a mixed gender couple. Um, they kind of fall into that classic, um, you know, one partner identifying as male, one partner identifying as female, the female being the default um partner. Who's feeling this pressure of?
Speaker 3:I'm here for everyone else pressure of the patriarchy, right, yeah, yes, the weight, the burden, the sort of, yes, the baggage of the patriarchy and the reality is, paul grew up in the patriarchy too right, right, and so I love the word that was used here, the here, the oblivion.
Speaker 2:Paul is oblivious to this, it seems, and that oblivion creates a real level of disconnect and discord between Paul and Tasha, because oftentimes what I could hear people saying like okay, well, the solution then for this? So Tasha doesn't feel like her needs are getting met, she doesn't feel like anyone's there to take. You know what she just needs some Tasha time. She just needs to, you know, really drill down on some self-care. Or you know what Paul could say to Tasha hey, well, I hear you Like tell me what you need and I'll make the changes and I'll start doing more. Or or someone Paul be like hey, tasha, it's not my fault, you're trying to meet everyone's expectations. You just need to chill out and let people deal with stuff and take care of themselves. Right Like. These are all conflicts and comments we hear couples in this scenario engaging in, and none of those are the solution.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're kind Like I think that that's like an intention, like the intention there.
Speaker 2:They're an effort to fix things Sure.
Speaker 3:Paul's not saying hey, okay, whoa, you should take some time to be mean, but it's a band-aid right. Right, Like that's not the solution. That's trying to fix it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Rather than really engage it.
Speaker 2:Right, which is so you know what does need to happen here. What does Tasha need? And I think it is? Tasha needs Paul to understand her history with needs like we were just talking about. She needs Paul not to be oblivious.
Speaker 3:Yes, and she needs Paul to take responsibility too for his history with needs, because everybody has this. Everybody has somebody named you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I grew up in a couple of different contexts that shaped my history of needs, so maybe I didn't have the feeling that I could express my needs. But also I grew up in a context that was very men were in charge. Women were there for men. My mom did everything and that was what was expected, and so I was a male in that context. And so I walk out of that thinking, yeah, women are there to kind of meet everyone's needs.
Speaker 3:Well, I also think because you grew up, that's one of your contacts, so that's maybe like the deepest theme, and there's a story in our book that speaks to this in a way that I love. Like I feel really proud of their story and I can't remember their names in the book, but it's similar to your story here where it's because you actually saw that and knew in your body like I don't like that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You work so hard to work against that.
Speaker 2:That's true, it did, it did. It was what I saw and it was sort of the ingrained thinking that was given to me, but I did fundamentally. You know what was so interesting I saw? That way of interacting caused so much trouble in my parents' relationship that I did kind of go like, no, maybe this doesn't work, maybe this shouldn't be the way that it is.
Speaker 3:And the story from our book. The guy in our book was raised by a single mom and so he was like working all the time to make sure his partner never felt this way. Like I never want you to feel that, and I think you have a similar feeling Like. I would never want Aaron to feel this way.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But that's my story, like that's my history, before you even entered it. So sometimes I do feel that way.
Speaker 2:Right and even though I am trying to be mindful to work against it, it's my story. My experience was seeing women my mom take care of everything, and I can fall into that pattern, that oblivion of lack of awareness and lack of mindfulness of when that is taking place, and you can feel that I'm sitting there being like, well, yeah, you should just take care of it, Like that's not for me to take care of.
Speaker 3:Sure, I think that this happens in really obvious ways like that, what you just said. But even if you don't, just because you're working really hard doesn't mean I'm never going to feel this Because, again, separate and apart from you and how you may or may not be perpetuating this. This is my story, where I feel like I am having to like don't have needs, aaron. Oh gosh, your throat's feeling a little sore, it's fine, you're fine, it's fine, you just push through, push, push, push. I'm going to do that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Unless like, and so that's the thing you and I are both going to operate out of these like default settings until we do understand these stories. But I think the reason it matters, because most of the people we see and I do understand we see people who are willing to engage in these places, sure, but most of the partners we see that is the last thing they want.
Speaker 2:Most of the Stevens and Pauls Like Paul's, you know he's an engaged dad. He's doing a lot Like he's not seeking to perpetuate this story for Tasha.
Speaker 3:But honestly, what I think that does is make it that much harder for Paul's and Stephen's to stomach when Aaron's and Tasha's feel this way.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:How.
Speaker 2:You get super defensive.
Speaker 3:But that's the last thing I want.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm not saying it's what you want, but I'm saying it's what I'm experiencing. And I am saying it's what I'm feeling and I think for the Tashas and the Aarons, because, until explored, that doesn't have to be something you invite me to.
Speaker 2:Say more.
Speaker 3:To dismiss my own needs, I think Aarons and Tashas's without exploring this, we just default into dismissing, yeah, and it's like you're benefiting, Like why aren't you like you? So I think I think we all have to be aware of the way we are perpetuating old unwanted stories around needs.
Speaker 2:Right, the work that that I have to do is. My goal is to not perpetuate patriarchy and to perpetuate an imbalance and a lack of equity between Aaron and myself, but I think what I don't realize is how much effort and intention I have to give to being mindful of it.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that that is my responsibility and that Paul being able to see, like, yes, I'm asking where the grocery bags are because I'm just trying to go to the grocery store and maybe in a different context, on a day, without this being the scenario, that ask wouldn't be a big deal, but Paul has to give effort and thought to like, oh, I get how me not just going and finding them and doing a little extra work and figuring it out myself can add to this dynamic that Tasha is feeling. And I think that that's what, um the like, my responsibility is is is to be mindful of that, to be thoughtful of that on an intention, on an intentional, perpetual basis.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think some of the words you used that I really appreciated were if you aren't anticipating, if you aren't looking. I mean, I say this to my kids 4,000 times a day like, if you leave that there you are saying that's for someone else to pick up, right, that is what you're saying.
Speaker 2:And we have all boys, and so it's very important. It's very important that we communicate with them, that there's a deeper level to it as well, which they could be communicating to their partner Like this is your job as a woman to pick this stuff up, and we, you know, we're trying to break those cycles in the world, you know.
Speaker 2:But I do think that there's work. The work for you and Tasha and see what this sounds like is the you said you know. So oftentimes there's kind of a relinquishing or a falling into this like I'll meet all the needs, I'll do all this kind of stuff without an awareness, and I think one of the things I've heard you say is you have to be aware of how that's happening and how you're doing that and saying no, I'm not going to Absolutely, I think that's so true and saying no, I'm not going to.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, I think that's so true and I think that for both you and me, and Paul and Tasha, and everybody out there, no matter your dynamic or makeup, has to understand your story around needs, because until I was able to say I really felt like it was required of me to be for other people and here's some of the stories that really like solidified that for me where I really felt that. Here's how I felt that in the classroom, here's how I felt that. You know, on and on and on. I'm going to repeat it.
Speaker 3:Right, you know my favorite thing what doesn't get repaired gets repeated. And I think that we have to say like no, I'm going to tell you my throat hurts, and like I'm out, and things like I think we start to say. So the thing that Tasha said Paul was oblivious to was when he said I just asked where the grocery bags were. I'm trying to help you out, Tasha. And so many partners are like. I'm tired of pointing that out every time.
Speaker 3:I'm tired of saying like oh, you're helping me, this is you helping me. Oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:I said it wrong.
Speaker 2:Like, but it matters.
Speaker 3:Our language matters, word choice matters because it does Like you're not helping me by also going to the store to get groceries for your family as well. Right, that's not helping me. That's just life, that's part of being an adult.
Speaker 2:And Tasha used the language of I need you to carry the burden with me. That's all that is. That is just a mutual caring of a common burden that any parent has not like. Hey, I'm doing something special here by going to the store.
Speaker 3:Which, and I think that the reason that that gets frustrating for Paul is because he's like that's what I do. I am the person who goes to the store. But, when you say it, I'm helping you. It doesn't feel like that. It feels like you're doing this thing because of a dynamic, and that's what has to be rooted out. Tends to work for the Tashas, the Aarons, a lot of default parents, as they just start doing a bunch of stuff because it feels easier, it's fine, I can just do this.
Speaker 1:It's easier.
Speaker 3:It's just going to be easier for me to take care of this. Or I asked Paul to do it. Paul didn't do it. How many times do you ask? I'm just going to take care of it. It needs to be done, but there has to be a real reckoning with this conversation with the real roots of this dynamic, with how this gets expressed and what you all are communicating.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because it's serious.
Speaker 2:And I think that this is what's so important I, when Aaron makes the comment that she, her lived experience is that she is here for other people, I have to recognize how like deeply ingrained that is. I do not have that belief, that belief as as a, you know, white, asian male. I do not have that belief that I am here for other people. And I have to recognize that that is Aaron's history, that's her history of her relationship with this idea of needs and what is expected of her. And so I I have to realize, like that is what I'm interacting with, that is what I am trying to like. I don't want Aaron to feel that way, like, like that's not, aaron's not here for other people. Um, I don't want to be here for other people, I don't want our kids to feel that way. So how am I living and how am I interacting and how is the context of parenting something that magnifies and supports and promotes that feeling that Aaron has, which is I'm here for other people? And then how do I actively work against it?
Speaker 3:So I, yes, because and I think maybe I'm overstating or repeating at this point, but one that is my job Aaron Tasha, have to do this work of repair ourselves, because that's something that is in me of claiming like no, I'm not here, Absolutely. By by saying like oh, I see how that happened for me.
Speaker 3:I see what that was like and and really having a great deal of compassion for that, for myself and how that happened to me and though, just like any of our histories as partners, it's not just mine Steven also has a responsibility to me in that to be aware of that, Because if he's not anticipating, if he is not predicting our kids' needs, if he is not taking that initiative, he's leaving it to me.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm perpetuating that story.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly, and so I think that is a way, while it's not Stephen's role to fix that for me.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that that's the big distinction where the Pauls and Stephens are like. That's not what I hey that's not me, I'm not doing that, but but the lack of action, the lack of intention leaves it it. It was, it is the same result. And so just because that's not what you intend to do, or that's not what you believe or how you see it, doesn't mean like your, your lack of moving out of the oblivious place continues to perpetuate the dynamic.
Speaker 3:You've got to do something, yes, and I will say, though, so like, while I do think the Pauls and the Stevens, who want it the least, have the hardest time recognizing it, they're like, no, like, I don't want that to be true.
Speaker 1:I don't want that to be true. I don't want that to be true.
Speaker 3:Like okay, noted. No one thinks you want they're like no, I don't want that to be true. I don't want that to be true. I don't want that to be true. Like okay, noted. No one thinks you want that to be true. That doesn't mean it isn't, but they also tend to have the quickest, like once it settles in.
Speaker 2:I think the quickest turnaround to like, oh, oh.
Speaker 3:So you're not saying something terrible about me and you're not saying I'm not helping. You're saying this is a dynamic and all you need for me to do is, like, anticipate in this way, predict in this way.
Speaker 2:Oh to be mindful on it.
Speaker 3:Sure, I think so. While there's maybe a negative to that dynamic, I think there's also a real strong positive to that.
Speaker 2:So what might this conversation look like? So, after you know, paul and Tasha have this, this conflict. How might they repair it and get to a different place? So I'll be Paul, you can be Tasha. Fantastic. So Paul says. So that conversation was heated. I think you were trying to say you're angry.
Speaker 3:Yes, great deduction, paul. I'm angry.
Speaker 2:Paul, you said that you don't feel like I'm part of carrying the burden of needs that everyone brings to you. Seems that there's a big part of how you feel that I am. What did you say? Oblivious to?
Speaker 3:Tasha well, that may have been harsh, but yeah, I don't feel like you understand the constant requests from you and the kids and the expectation that it is me who's going to meet every one of those requests. It's exhausting, it's unfair. I am completely overwhelmed by that.
Speaker 2:Paul, do you not believe that I want to know what you need, or that I'm trying to meet your needs too?
Speaker 3:Tasha? No, I think you want to know. I think you want to know all of that, but at the same time, you don't ask. I don't feel like you're waking up each day thinking what's going on for Tasha, what would be helpful, what would Tasha enjoy, what might Tasha be needing? I think you want to know, but only when I tell you. But I wake up predicting and imagining what everyone might need. I'd like to feel like you're doing the same.
Speaker 2:Paul, yeah, I don't do that. I react to what the kids need or what you need. If you say something or if the moment arises and someone needs something, right then I don't want to stress myself out trying to predict.
Speaker 3:Tasha. Well, I don't know if you get the choice. Paul, when you don't stress yourself out, that means someone is. That means me, that means I have to. There isn't a world where someone isn't predicting and wondering about what our kids are going to be needing. So you not doing it means I am.
Speaker 2:Paul. Wow, I don't think I fully get that or am aware of that, but it seems really important for me to understand it. Paul recognizing Tasha isn't given the choice. This is an expectation dumped on her, and what she needs is Paul to carry the burden of that too. In other words, not just leave it to her because she's the default parent or the woman in the relationship, but seeing this as predicting and thinking about other people's needs and trying to meet other people's needs. That is a two-person job in their relationship, one that they are to carry together.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think to whatever ends, because I think that there's also some prediction that doesn't need to happen. To be honest, I think that there's also some prediction that doesn't need to happen.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:To be honest, I think that we can overpredict. I think that that's a historical need, also because it feels long term easier. If I can just predict and meet everybody's needs, you know like I'll have done my job and there's some unlearning that needs to happen in that too, but either way it happens together, I feel like I can turn off, because I feel like, oh, you actually get like. Oh yeah, there's a soccer game today, which means there's a soccer bag that needed to have been packed which means if you're like, yeah, where's that bag, that means you didn't think about it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Which like understanding that dynamic, and I think that that can happen a lot of ways. I think that can happen with little reminders like this was a moment like that, that comment, that felt like a moment where I'm like oh, you expected me to have taken care of that, and as long as it's not passive, aggressive. I think the more often that I've felt like you actually want me to bring those things up, the more I have felt that shift for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like right there, like I don't think you meant anything by it, but that feels like why? Why would I know that?
Speaker 2:Right. Why am I, or why do I have to be the one who knows that?
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think that you have a hundred times been like I wasn't even really expecting you to know. I was more just like talking out loud, Like yeah, but when you talk that out loud, in front of me it makes me feel like you do think it's my job to know that.
Speaker 2:Those types of bringing it to awareness rather than it living under the surface. Yeah, it is really important for this dynamic to be brought to light. Your conflicts oftentimes bring it to light. Hopefully, through this you can maybe see that there's a way to have this conversation like Paul and Tasha had it, that is, more collaborative, more understanding, less blame and criticism.
Speaker 3:More kindness, compassion and curiosity.
Speaker 2:But that is what is needed in terms for these things to shift and for both partners to be sharing the responsibility of meeting all the needs that are present within their family. Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.