Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
I Handle Stress "Right," It's My Partner That Handles Stress "Wrong"
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This episode dives into the dynamics of emotional regulation between partners in stressful parenting moments, highlighting the contrasting coping behaviors of downshifting and upshifting. Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP provide practical insights using a relatable case study, illustrating how couples can navigate these tensions and foster meaningful communication to create a supportive family environment.
• Explaining the downshift-upshift coping dynamic in relationships
• Analyzing a common conflict scenario in parenting
• Discussing the role of everyday stressors on couple dynamics
• Introducing the concept of co-regulation between partners
• Offering actionable strategies for improving communication during stress
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell.
Speaker 3:I'm Erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:And we are happy to be here with you today. How are you coming in, bud Good?
Speaker 3:It's a little less cold and there's a promise of even some warmth here in Denver, so I'm feeling hopeful about everything.
Speaker 2:We have had a lot of snow indeed. How about you? I'm coming in. I got to be honest, I'm coming in a little tired. How about you? I'm coming in. I got to be honest, I'm coming in a little tired, coming in a little hectic, a little frantic.
Speaker 2:I see that Things feel a little busy, but you know what? I'm not going to let it get in the way of this show. Woo, all right, but today we wanted to talk about a very, very, very, very, very common interactional pattern that we see between partners, and I might describe it using a car analogy.
Speaker 3:Oh, how about this? Or would it be that coming, would it?
Speaker 2:be a car analogy or car metaphor.
Speaker 3:Oh, metaphor a metaphor.
Speaker 2:I don't know what the difference between an analogy and metaphor is. I'm gonna look it up, but so a car, don't. I'm going to look it up, but so a car-.
Speaker 3:I don't either.
Speaker 2:I'm sitting here like- Is it? Yeah, so I'm going to use a car analogy, potentially, or a car metaphor, potentially. Here we go. There is oftentimes in stress, partners do one of two things. There is a partner who potentially downshifts.
Speaker 3:There it was Downshifts. I couldn't see where we were going.
Speaker 2:Downshifts, in other words tries to bring the energy and the stress down. They usually get kind of described as the calm or chill. They're just always so steady partner, oftentimes another partner who shifts up, which means they become very active. They might spin a little bit about things like verbally externally it looks very external in terms of their shifting up.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna let you finish, but I already have a comment, okay.
Speaker 2:So this doesn't mean that this is the only type of interactional pattern between partners, because sometimes you have two partners that downshift, sometimes you have two partners that shift up. But a common pattern that we see is when partners go in opposite directions One goes down, one goes up and that's what we wanted to talk about today. Now you can correct everything that I've said, apparently.
Speaker 3:It's not correcting, I think when you said that this person is described as calm or the study, I think that person self-describes as calm and steady. I feel like the partner sees them as disengaged or dismissive.
Speaker 2:Something more negative?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well I mean honestly, because I feel like that is very often especially about parenting things, our dynamic where you downshift and I think you think that you are trying to be steady.
Speaker 2:I think in the past I have. I do recognize it now as what you said that it does cause me to be disengaged or withdrawn.
Speaker 3:Well, it can. I mean I think the attempt, I think the intention is still, and maybe we're like putting the cart before the horse here, which is maybe another analogy or metaphor.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's tough.
Speaker 3:So I think we should get into this, but I do think that the way that we perceive ourselves in these situations is almost always very different than how our partner views us. But I do think almost universally I would dare say universally the intention is to bring balance is to try to study the situation for everybody.
Speaker 2:Both partners are trying to bring balance and they're moving in opposite directions.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Downshifting, upshifting.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I wouldn't have to upshift if you Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm going to stick with that car metaphor analogy.
Speaker 3:Met.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm going to stick with that car metaphor, analogy, metamology I'm going to stick with the car monology, but why don't we get into a case example and see if we can't make this come to life a little bit more? So today we're just walking through life with Connor and Will. Just a day in the life of Connor and Will, and this is what we got. Connor and Will have found themselves in the same old place they always do. Phoebe, their daughter, was running late for school again, which meant that Will was going to be late for an important meeting at work. Will got upset with Phoebe, phoebe got upset with Will and Connor tried to solve the problem by telling Will he needed to calm down and not get so bent out of shape with Phoebe, because it was just making things worse. This resulted in Will and Connor then getting in an argument, because Will was tired of Connor never taking anything serious and always acting like he was too reactive and emotional, since everyone had to get out the door and go to work or school. The conflict lingered all day and when Will and Connor got home, it picked up right where it left off.
Speaker 2:Will said you know, connor, I'm really tired of you acting like you're some chill Zen person that never gets worked up about anything. I was frustrated that Phoebe was running late. I can be frustrated with her for that, connor. Well, you always overreact to everything. If you would just stay calm and not get so stressed out, you wouldn't butt heads with Phoebe. Will responds. Why is it always the same thing with you? You never show any emotion, and for some reason, that is better than me showing some frustration. At least I'm not some unemotional robot that never expresses anything. You are not different than me. You get stressed and overwhelmed. You just shut down and disappear instead of show any emotion. Connor, sure Will, and look at what all this show of emotion is doing for us right now. I'll talk with you about this when you calm down. Oh, I do not want to be Connor or Will right now.
Speaker 1:Or Phoebe.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, poor Phoebe, she's having to listen to this too, but so this is such a common thing conversation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think even how you started it with like here's a day in the life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because all that happened was trying to get out the door.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, a simple, you know, not a simple transition, no, it's not a simple transition.
Speaker 3:That's the thing Transitions are so complex and just so ready to have this type of dynamic go wrong.
Speaker 2:And I do think that just as a little you know basic little side principle here, like if you think about your family system and you think about when are the moments that your family experiences the most stress or when you and your partner run into the most kind of conflict, generally it is around these everyday transitions getting out the door to get to work or school, getting out the door to go to a practice or rehearsal or something, bedtime, dinnertime, coming home from school all of these transitional moments which just increase stress, which simply means it increases or changes the energy of your situation.
Speaker 2:in context, and when there's a change in energy, there's an introduction of stress into that context, and then this is where we get into the carm analogy, which is oftentimes one partner will seek to downshift to deal with that energy change and another partner will upshift to deal with that energy change. But they're both seeking the same thing. They're both trying to bring back a sense of balance and peace.
Speaker 3:Right, I think the thing we hear about this all the time, and then I think we really should talk about Will and Connor, but I think well, I'm going to talk about it through Will and Connor but I think so Will is wanting let's relax, bring it down.
Speaker 2:No, Connor is doing that. Will is the one who's a little amped.
Speaker 3:Okay Okay. Connor is trying to do that Like hey, because he recognizes it too.
Speaker 2:And I think that's important. He recognizes what, that there is stress Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, and so I think that that person, I think that the wills, which is often me, but here's the other thing. So sorry, whoa.
Speaker 2:I've got a lot of thoughts here. I'm waiting for it.
Speaker 3:This is not always the same person doing the same gear shift every time no, sometimes I can upshift yes, I can downshift. Will can upshift. Will can downshift, connor can upshift. It usually, though, has themes, so, like the types of stressors tend to be the same, that cause the up or the downshift right and we anticipate that from our partner and we say, oh, steven's gonna, you know, he's gonna go up in this one I better bring it down and be like hey, everybody downshift and we anticipate that from our partner and we say, oh, stephen's going to, you know he's going to go up in this one.
Speaker 2:I better bring it down and be like hey, everybody.
Speaker 3:So Connor's looking at this and he's like oh, same old story, here we go, correct. I mean, it actually says that, right. Why does it always have to?
Speaker 2:And Will's like oh, same old story. Connor's trying to shut things down and like not have any kind of emotional interaction here, right, right.
Speaker 3:And I think it's important too, because I actually really like this, because I think a lot of times one parent feels like they're not allowed to show their child anything, Anything except super calm, really controlled, like nothing, yeah, and I think it is okay for our kids to see us. Well, it is okay, it's not. I think it. Research is very clear that our kids need to see frustration so that they know how to handle it. I think a lot of us have big issues with anger because we either didn't see it or we saw it go terribly wrong. Same with some of the others, but typically anger is the most scary.
Speaker 3:So, I think frustration is just sort of in the world of anger, and I think that that's what it seems is happening here, because what you don't say in this example is that they were like yelling at each other and things were off the rails but like, hey, this is frustrating right that is okay that is a good boundary, as long as it's done in a way that you mean with right.
Speaker 2:Right, because Will's like I'm allowed to be frustrated. Bb and I, we can work this out and I think this is this gets into um, so that this is why these kinds of things happen, the shift in energy and then everyone trying to re-find a place of balance or peace another nerdy homeostasis, you could say. But I think that there's also some things that Will and Connor said that I think are important to address.
Speaker 3:If you notice, there's this dichotomy between wills just being overreactive and emotional, sure, and connor is being more reasonable or rational or logical and like that's the, that's the better thing so says connor, so right right and so oftentimes this conversation goes like that yeah, um and so says will, is that connor's a robot and just wants everyone like you know, like there's idea that I think there's been a lot more talk about this, but like that gentle, parenting has become this like we aren't allowed to show any emotion and we never tell our kids like hey, like you know, we actually do need to pack our backpack right before, so that we don't run into this. You know, like things like that, Um which.
Speaker 3:I think has been a really helpful conversation. But your point, they can be like really, really, mine's all good, yours is all bad.
Speaker 2:Well, they're like straw persons, is what they are.
Speaker 2:They are false dichotomies, because there's the idea of what actually is healthy and the reality of all things is we are all emotional beings. Everyone has emotions. There's not someone who has zero emotion and somebody who has more emotion. Now, how we express our emotion, that might be very different, but we are all emotional. But also health. Like is this concept of integration and it's being able to have this fully integrative neurological process where you sense, feel, have emotions and then you are able to also think about your emotions in a way that helps you then process what is happening and express yourself in a healthy manner.
Speaker 3:Did you just describe the conflict to connection? Part of intentional expression.
Speaker 2:That is part of it. Conflict to connection it's in the book Too Tired to Fight, Don't be afraid to go get it today. We are healthy when we're able to feel and Think about our feelings. Think about our feelings and then express Right, and neither Connor nor Will are doing that. So they both have a place to grow and places to change here.
Speaker 3:I think why this is incredibly important is because perhaps they both can do that.
Speaker 2:Sure, they're just not doing it right now.
Speaker 3:Yes, and I think that that's a fear-driven place. I think that, probably for let's you know, we're going to pretend that we've seen Will and Connor for a long time.
Speaker 2:Oh, we have, we know their stories Right. Right, we have, we see them and will.
Speaker 3:We know a lot about his story. He's, he's, you know, dug deep and discovered, and uh has been able to articulate that. He grew up where he didn't see emotion, his right his family. You know they're from Southern Illinois, Midwest family Is that me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds like you.
Speaker 3:This part isn't even true. But there wasn't expression of emotion, there was confusion. The kids wandered around like it feels like things are tense. I think things are tense, but they never knew. And then we know about Connor that Connor saw only extremes, like there was either nothing or there was like very frustrated, very angry. There was no balance. And so they have these places, that it is fear, informed. But also that means that they have this great desire for something different for Phoebe.
Speaker 2:So you know they will really wants Phoebe to understand the frustration that he is feeling and Connor wants for it to, for Phoebe not to experience these extremes of everything or nothing. You know more balanced?
Speaker 3:Yes, and Will may very well feel like I was doing that, but Connor's very sensitive to that. Who knows?
Speaker 1:Well, we know because we know them all so well.
Speaker 3:But my point is there are reasons that we do the shifting we do in the moments we do, and it is our job and honestly our privilege to get to know these places for one another Right.
Speaker 2:And I think that where the issue comes is when we respond to our partner out of that fear place in this dynamic and we say what you're doing is wrong, right, your response of expressing your emotion like you're doing well, that's wrong. You need to calm down, you need to stop. Or, connor, the way you're trying to shut these things up, that is wrong, and I think that, technically, are either one of those great no. But what partners begin to argue about is how the other is responding in terms of their stress. Rather than being able to say like hey it like whoa, let's take a break. You know what I'm feeling? Like we should bring it down a little bit. You're feeling like, hey, this is really important, this needs to be heard. Okay, like what can we like? How can we do that? Rather than us getting in an argument based on our fear, we can get into a collaborative conversation based on knowing oh, I know that we do Like I lean this way a little bit more.
Speaker 2:When there's stress, I lean this way Okay, you're downshifting too much. I think you're upshifting a little too much. Can we meet somewhere?
Speaker 3:And depending on how old Phoebe is, she absolutely can know these cues about her parents. She absolutely can know these cues about her parents.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So you know, for for our kids, our kids know a lot about our stories, steven's in mind, Will, and Connor's, you know, phoebe knows about their story. So like whoa, like you know, when Connor comes in, like and like whoa whoa Phoebe whoa like. Wait, who? Who came in?
Speaker 2:Connor came in to shut the conversation down.
Speaker 3:Connor shut it down. So Connor comes in and is trying to shut it down and Will can be like is it feeling extreme?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like whoa.
Speaker 3:And Phoebe can be like you know, maybe a little, or like no, it was okay, like I understand, or whatever, and then it can happen in reverse, like I think we're okay, I think I had it I think but like, but I get that maybe like good check.
Speaker 2:I'll take the note.
Speaker 2:I'll take the note, Like I think we're working it out Like and in that way you are not trying to champion your way of regulating stress over your partners, and also that is a much more collaborative conversation. That is a conversation where that neural integration is seen right, because it's good for Connor to say like hey, what? Like check in, check in, like, are you really upshifting really high here, will. And Will can be like, oh, that's a good check, that's a good note. You know what? I think I'm all right, I think I'm in a good, balanced place. I can keep going on.
Speaker 2:Same thing for Will in terms of Connor, like hey, I feel like this is just making you nervous and you're just trying to shut it down. And Connor can be like huh, is this just making me nervous and I'm trying to shut it down and kind of, can be like huh, is this just making me nervous and I'm trying to shut it down. Maybe, maybe, okay, maybe I can, maybe I can let it, you know, ride for a little bit longer, like this is how you have that integration of your, your emotional experience in mind, with your thinking, logical, rational experience in mind, and then how?
Speaker 3:as a couple and then ultimately as a family, this sort of I know you love this phrase this neuro narrative, because when we all know the story, we're not offended by it.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You know, like I want to be respectful of, like oh, I know that this can be can feel threatening to you, right I? Know that and like having met your family or seeing where you came from, like I know that and having met your family or seeing where you came from, I get that and I don't want to make you feel that way. So I can be aware of this and I can provide the description of how I'm doing so that, if I disagree, hey, okay, I hear that you're feeling like that but, I'm checking in with myself.
Speaker 3:I'm okay. I am not too frustrated with Phoebe. I just wanted her to know like hey, we talked about this.
Speaker 2:And this is a beautiful thing that partners can do with one another. It's another way of, in a healthy way, what we would call co-regulation as partners, right, yes, and there's nothing better for our kids to see.
Speaker 3:It's so powerful.
Speaker 2:So Will and Connor are both stressed here and if they can have a conversation like what we just described, they're helping one another co-regulate, they're helping one another attune and assess. These are some words that you might find in the conflict to connection equation too tired to fight? Don't be afraid to go.
Speaker 2:Get it today, don't be afraid to go get it today, and so I mean this is a really healthy display of how partners can help one another regulate in stress when they know one another's pattern in response to stress and they also know how their interactional pattern can get sideways in the midst of stress. So we're going to give a little script of like okay, so Connor and Will, you know they came home the fight was still happening, let's see how they maybe work through it, which is wild, isn't it?
Speaker 3:I really liked that part too, because I can do an entire day where like maybe it like occurred to me every once in a while, but like mostly like I had to function and I talked to people and I was fine.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But, then you come back into that context. We're back at home, I see the shoes or I see you, or whatever, and it's just like, oh, it's right here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, here it was all along. Yes, yeah, so I'm going to be Connor since you can't remember Connor's name throughout this whole show, so I'll be Connor. Nothing against the Connors out there. You can be Will Fantastic. So, connor Will, I wasn't fair to you earlier. I did the thing that Aaron and Steven have been talking to us about, didn't I?
Speaker 3:Will says what do you mean?
Speaker 2:Connor, I was getting stressed hearing you and Phoebe getting upset with one another, so I wanted things to calm down and I did that by making you the bad guy and saying this is out of hand and your emotions are the problem.
Speaker 3:Will says yes, you did do that, it made me so angry.
Speaker 2:Connor, I get it. Sorry, I made my way of managing the stress seem superior to yours.
Speaker 3:I appreciate that I was frustrated with Phoebe. I felt like we were working it out. I was also really harsh with what I said about you being a robot and not having any emotions.
Speaker 2:Connor, true, that was harsh, but I also understand what you're trying to say. I was downshifting and trying to force you to do the same.
Speaker 3:Will says, and I was shifting up and, to your point, potentially escalating things, although I was trying to be mindful of what I was saying and I was aware of my energy.
Speaker 2:Connor, yeah, I think we need some cues to help each other in the moment. Check in, like you would say to me. I feel like you're downshifting right now. Is that happening? If there's something I can do to help the stress, is there something I can do to help the stress feel different?
Speaker 3:And Will says and you could maybe say to me I feel like you're shifting up right now. Is that happening? Is there something I can do to help the stress feel different?
Speaker 2:Connor, I don't know if that will work, but maybe we can try it out and see what happens.
Speaker 3:Will says yeah, I think at least trying will keep us from both feeling like the other saying you're doing something wrong, and we both walk away feeling criticized you're doing something wrong and we both walk away feeling criticized.
Speaker 2:That is the kind of co-regulation couples can offer one another in these moments of stress.
Speaker 3:What I love about this, because something we talk to couples about all the time, because we have the historical experience we have, we're never going to be able to acknowledge that our way of handling stress is wrong, because it was helpful to us. It is our reaction, it's our go-to, so to say I'm sorry for Downshifting or upshifting. Yeah, we can't. We literally cannot do because it's in our minds-.
Speaker 2:It's a great resource for us. It works. It's what our nervous system does.
Speaker 3:Yes, it has worked. So can we acknowledge now like, oh, we could have a new way. Yes, yes, all day long.
Speaker 2:And I think that that's the invitation here to partners and this is the way that partners grow in intimacy and connection and closeness is we say, hey look, I'm not going to judge that, I don't want you to judge how I regulate, I don't want to judge how you regulate, but what we can do is we can find language and we can find a way of speaking to one another that invites each of us to grow and to become more integrated and to become more healthy in how we do handle stress, and also that we can recognize that we can help one another regulate, which I think one of the reasons we oftentimes struggle so much with stress is we oftentimes have felt alone in our stress and we're sitting there trying to manage it on our own. But when we are able to have conversations, like Will and Connor are having, then we can feel like, oh, we're actually together in this and we're helping one another and being mutually accountable for ourselves and feeling mutually supported.
Speaker 3:If that can happen, like, exactly like we said it in front of Phoebe.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 3:Life changing. Right Like, because she's like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:We were working on it, or it was frustrating, or I was frustrated too, and she can be like you know what I didn't feel like you were managing it, or yeah, I felt whatever.
Speaker 2:Well, what you communicate to Phoebe is that she can have a different experience of having someone ie her caregivers, you know and as she moves on and develops more relationships partners friends, she can have someone who is with her and can help support her right in the midst of her stress, which is what Connor and Will did not have.
Speaker 2:Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.