Couples Counseling For Parents
Couples Counseling For Parents
Could I Get a Little Validation Over Here?
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Life as a parent can often feel like a flood of responsibilities, expectations, and emotional exhaustion. In this episode, Stephen Mitchell, PhD and Erin Mitchell, MACP, address the cycle of invalidation that can arise between partners as they try to juggle tasks and manage parenting stress. Through the story of Raj and Brynn, we explore how feelings of being overworked and underappreciated can lead to mutual invalidation in relationships.
Join us in uncovering the steps necessary to shift out of a cycle of invalidation into a pattern of offering vulnerability and validation. Tune in for meaningful insights and real world scripts that can help you strengthen your couple relationship as you parent.
Hello and welcome. This is Couples Counseling for Parents a show about couple relationships, how they work, why they don't, what you can do to fix what's broken. Here are our parents our dad, dr Stephen Mitchell, and our mom, erin Mitchell.
Speaker 2:Hello and thanks for joining us today on Couples Counseling for Parents. I'm Dr Stephen Mitchell.
Speaker 3:I'm.
Speaker 2:Erin Mitchell, and you know I was scrolling through Instagram this week, as I do sometimes.
Speaker 1:No, you don't.
Speaker 2:And I came upon this great, great content is this handle called Couples Counseling for Parents, and I was just reading some of the material and I read this amazing quote, caught my, captured my attention, and so it will be capturing the attention of our show today. Great so, um, and brilliant creator, brilliant content creator, who, um, made this statement. I don't know who she is, um but her name's Aaron Mitchell.
Speaker 3:Oh hi.
Speaker 2:Oh you're here with us on the show, but you made this great post and you had this great comment you said sometimes we invalidate because we feel invalidated.
Speaker 3:I do think it's worth stating and maybe it's overstating An explanation. So the fact that I can explain why this happens does not excuse it from happening. It's not like oh well, now that we know why you invalidate. That makes it totally okay.
Speaker 2:Right Now that we're validating the invalidation, and why it happens. Get it. Yes, I got it.
Speaker 3:We are not saying it's okay. So yes, let's jump into it.
Speaker 2:We are not saying it's okay, so, so, yes, we let's, let's jump into it. Um, before we jump into it, one little show note, one little thing for listeners to keep in mind. Actually, two things, because, um, I just remembered something. So the first is uh, we are on episode 95, episode 100 is just around the corner. Send us your questions.
Speaker 2:We're going to specifically try and address some of the salient, most juicy, most whatever you want to say questions that we get from our listeners. So DM us or email us, Subscribe to the newsletter so that you can email us more easily. I guess, Um, we want your questions for the hundredth episode coming up. Um, also the second thing if you are a couple who is, um, wanting help for perhaps dealing with invalidating one another and not knowing what to do, Uh, we uh work with couples and we also work with individuals. Uh, so you know, couples are individuals. If you're looking for some help just navigating this unique phase of your life, Uh, hey, don't be afraid to reach out to us. Um, you can do that through Instagram or email as well. It's all on the Instagram thing, handle.
Speaker 2:So, that place you regularly yeah yeah, that place that I'm always, you know, checking out, but let's get into this case example. So, raj and Bren, they, they are really caught up in this dynamic of sometimes we invalidate because we feel invalidated. Uh, so let me, let me just tell you a little story about raj and bren, just just what they're facing I mean, obviously I know them that's. That's so true. That's so true um. You know, we've been meeting with raj and bren for quite a while now and uh, you know.
Speaker 2:so Raj and Bryn are in the thick of parenting. They have three kids ages seven to 14. And it is not an overstatement to say their life is full of sports, extracurricular activities, social events for their kids and trying to balance their kids lives with their own professional lives. In short, it's quite a bit. It's quite a bit Now. Raj and Brynn don't view their busy lives negatively, but at times it does feel overwhelming and they can both find they feel overworked and underappreciated. In times of high stress, the flames of this feeling you like that I do Listen the flames of this feeling get stoked, huh.
Speaker 2:It's good writing, you know, oh yeah yeah, for both of them, and this is when they have their most heated conflicts.
Speaker 3:We all caught it. Stephen, we caught it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did all that on purpose, Okay. So just yesterday, Raj came home from a day of work chocked full of meetings that all felt tense and had significant implications for how the year-end budget at his company would pan out. Brynn had the day off from seeing patients as a nurse at the hospital, but her day had gotten commandeered by scheduling dentist appointments for the kids and trying to catch up with getting the house in some sort of order. Her plans of having a few moments to herself never panned out. The environment was teed up for a conflict. So this is what the conversation went like Raj, hey, Bryn, did you get the dentist appointment scheduled for the kids? Bryn, sure did Raj, I did Just that little bite in the voice. Sure did Raj, I did Just that little bite in the voice.
Speaker 2:Sure did Raj, along with picking up after everyone that left all their clothes, shoes and sports gear laying around. Not to mention I went behind you and took all your dry cleaning to the cleaners, raj. Oh, so it's going to be that kind of night, raj? Oh so it's going to be that kind of night. I didn't know. We were keeping a list of all the things we did today so that we could have a competition about it when we got home, bryn. Well, raj, I think it's important for you to know how I ended up having to spend my day off.
Speaker 2:Raj. Well, I'm not sure what you want me to say. I spent my day off this past weekend running around to the grocery store so that we could have food this week and taking back the 1000 packages you ordered from Amazon so that we could actually have money to buy groceries. Bren, that didn't even take up the whole day, raj. You went in the morning and were finished before lunch. Then you got to go and play tennis with the kids. How's that? Even the same thing, raj and I imagine you sleeping in this morning while I got the kids ready and out the door doesn't apply to you being able to have some time to yourself this morning, before your whole day off got consumed with all these tasks.
Speaker 2:Now we could go on and on, I think, but I think we're getting the picture. Got the picture? Is this played up a little bit? Sure, you know maybe, but I think what it does is it shows the back and forth, it shows that feeling of overworked and underappreciated. And then what happens when partners can feel like that is taking place?
Speaker 3:I think I imagine for some couples listening, I actually think it's a good question Like does this feel played up, like real question? Does it feel played up for you? Can you see it working like this? The only thing I was thinking is this might feel maybe like and fast forward, like, maybe those comments might last all night sure, sure like kind of confused quiet in between, um, but I think I think this might be kinder than some of the conflict that's true, we've.
Speaker 2:We have heard worse here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, um, yeah so I think like what does this sound like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Where do you find yourself leaning? I think what I really like about this one, though, is the intention here, Raj's seemingly harmless question of did you get that?
Speaker 1:task done, Right yeah.
Speaker 3:Probably was like just really wanting to know.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 3:So he could check it off of his own. I doubt that he was like hey, do you actually do something today? Yeah, but I think in a day where you do expect to have one minute to yourself and don't end up getting that, it is like, yeah, I did do that one task that's all I did today. You know like I can see how it could just feel like the wrong thing at the wrong time, and then back and forth, on and on, and on.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so I think at the base level, because I think probably everyone listening can imagine a moment in their parenting partner relationship where something like this has happened, where they feel overworked, underappreciated, something like this has happened where they feel overworked, underappreciated, and then there's this competition that ensues, this, this invalidating competition. Oh, you did that. Well, that's not that, that's not as big as what I did. Oh, you did that. Well, the back and forth. I think the question is like kind of fundamentally, yeah, what is going on here? And I think oftentimes, when one partner is trying to communicate something vulnerable about themselves, they bypass the vulnerable statement and use an invalidating statement. Worse, it's harder, it's more necessary than what you're doing, and it's not just what I'm doing is all of these things it's what you're doing in comparison is insignificant, easy, inconsequential, it doesn't matter. That's oftentimes the what partners feel is being communicated.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it is what is being communicated right, right, that's how they would describe. It sure, um so, and I think the key point here is the vulnerable thing gets bypassed for the invalidating thing okay, because, let's, let's walk it back, right, because I okay, I'm gonna be brin here, because I do get her sort of invalidating comment back.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Because what she would have had to have said. So Raj comes home and says it Right.
Speaker 2:So you are good, let's pause just for a second. So if this is true, how come the vulnerable thing gets bypassed for the invalidating thing? That's what I was going to say and I'm going to propose three things and see if this falls in line with what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes the vulnerable thing is just hidden, like Bryn maybe doesn't know. The invalidating thing just kind of pops up. Like you're, there's not enough time to self-reflect, there's not enough time to be aware of really what you're feeling or thinking. So sometimes that vulnerable thing just isn't in your awareness, it's a little hidden or it's maybe too scary to say like, maybe saying vulnerable things Maybe you know this is more of maybe a story based experience where someone's like oh, sharing vulnerable things isn't a great idea.
Speaker 2:I've shared vulnerable things in the past in my life and it's been dismissed or it's been made fun of or whatever it might be. So it's either hidden it's maybe too scary to reveal or in the parenting partner relationship, the vulnerable thing, the partner feels that it has been shut down. So maybe Bryn has a feeling of if I say a vulnerable thing, raj doesn't listen or he doesn't get it. Maybe Raj has that same feeling. If I say the vulnerable thing, I just get criticized or I get, you know, judged or whatever. So I just want to add that to where you were going and see if it lines up.
Speaker 3:I think that's exactly right, Because so Bryn would have won. Because you said there's not time, I think. I think that's everybody's favorite excuse, including mine who has time to? Just walk around self-reflecting all the time. All of us, we all have the opportunity to take the extra 37 seconds to be like that stung. Why, rather than that next reaction? Because once we know the things we've talked about this over and over, once we know our themes of why our negative interaction happens.
Speaker 2:You can find it.
Speaker 3:Yes, they're pretty much on point time and time again, so it's not there is a little bit of work in the beginning that does last longer than maybe the 30 seconds, but then it's like no, it really is maybe adding 30 seconds.
Speaker 2:I feel like you just threw down the gauntlet and I like it. I mean, I think you just challenged everybody out there.
Speaker 3:Self-included.
Speaker 2:Hey, stop using we don't have time as an excuse. You have time.
Speaker 3:I do think you have time, because ultimately this takes longer Fighting takes longer, so we either have time to figure out how to do it right. It's sort of like bad form, and exercise you might as well learn the right form. It does take a little bit, but it actually does something yeah, and it and it leads to less injury.
Speaker 3:It leads you know I have the metaphor goes on, but I really do think, yes, yeah, we, we need to. We need to take that like wait a minute moment, that didn feel good, why. But then the next part is I think that's brave to say like that actually hurt my feelings. So to your point, if you don't have the relationship that that feels welcome or will be heard and listened to, that is something entirely different. Well, and I think, I think that I know Brennan, raj Right, and Raj wants to hear that.
Speaker 2:They can work it out. Yeah, I mean they've worked through it, because I do think so. To your point, what you're saying, I do think that there's some things. So, when it comes to vulnerability, what, what needs to happen and I think you're you're speaking to it First of all, you need to learn to attune to yourself.
Speaker 3:Yes, don't know how Too tired to fight. Yeah, that's right, there's a conflict to connection equation that is going to. I mean, that is what our goal is, right, right.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is why we wrote the book, yes, so, yes, that is one way to learn. I think there's also, like it is something you have to learn, agreed, and so take the time to learn it. That's what, yes, that's what our book is about. That's what things like meditation and mindfulness are about. That's what sitting down with a facilitator, a coach, us, or whatever is about. Like take the time to learn, learn the skill. I think the another thing that aids vulnerability is, yes, you need to learn to attune yourself, but also, to your point, like, you might have to resolve some resentment with your partner and and that is necessary that is a necessary part of this process, because if it does feel like there's a pattern of it being dismissed, or even just maybe not even like in a in a malicious way, but just missed, just misunderstood, where you don't feel like your partner gets you and you don't get your partner, well, that is where resentment comes from and you do need to take the time to resolve that.
Speaker 3:And again, it takes less time to figure out how to resolve it than to keep stacking on the resentment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and I think that when you do those two things, then you, I think the next step is you need to risk repeating the past to change the future.
Speaker 3:Well, wait, and this is what I mean by that.
Speaker 2:So if you have a history of well, you know I've been vulnerable with my partner, I feel like it gets dismissed and you know. So I'm just not going to do it anymore. Okay, if you take the steps to learn, to attune to your own vulnerability, your partner does the same and y'all take the steps to resolve those resentments. You have to risk repeating the past so that future can change, because if you just sit there living, oh, it's just not going to work, then it won't Right, sure it won't.
Speaker 3:I really like that, because you're not repeating the past, you're risking repeating the past. I missed that part the first time because it's like, no, we don't want to read the past. No, you're right, we don't.
Speaker 2:It takes some courage. It takes some courage. It takes some courage for you both. I like that a lot and I think that that is a really necessary part of this for partners. So, in terms of if you want to grow in your vulnerability and your ability to be vulnerable with your partner, you need to learn to attune to your own self, your own feelings, those vulnerable things. You need to learn to attune to your own, to your own like self, your own feelings, those vulnerable things. You need to resolve the resentment between you and your partner and you need to risk repeating the past to change the future. That is the pathway to vulnerability with your partner. Now how that impacts your ability to the communication process. You know and I'm going to say you know, raj and Brent have really been working on this.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I commend their effort.
Speaker 2:You know, we have really been taking them through this, this initial process, in terms of becoming more comfortable with the, with that idea of being vulnerable and, and you know, thankfully they've. They've grown and they're really working on this next phase, which is the communication process, which is the, the step of being able to, in the communication with your partner, you listen for the invalidation. In other words, you, you know like, am I invalidating my partner or am I feeling like they're invalidating me? Like that's the cue? Hey, wait a second. Maybe we're, maybe we're trying to say something vulnerable here.
Speaker 2:So you listen for that invalidation and then you work to discover that vulnerable thing, the need the longing the feeling that is trying to be expressed, Then you state that to your partner and then you acknowledge and course correct. All right, so you're like man, that sounds like a lot of steps, but you know what it's not it is. It is simply a very laid out process for how you and your partner can revolutionize your communication.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 2:So we're like okay, so what might this look like?
Speaker 3:Sound like.
Speaker 2:Yes, not look like what, what might it look like and sound like? Because there are some people who are looking. So, hey, everybody, just in case you didn't know, all these podcasts are on video as well. Go to our YouTube channel, couples Counseling for Parents. You can watch Erin and I talk and interact, and so you can see what this script could look like, as also you can hear it. All right, so look in here.
Speaker 2:Sound you ready, so helpful. I feel so validated by you right now. And what you're saying I'm glad I'll be Raj. Good you be Brynn. Yeah, this is what this process might sound like.
Speaker 3:Brynn would say Raj, I came in really hot this evening. When you came home I could hear it in my voice when you asked me about the dentist, and I pounced Raj, no kidding what was going on.
Speaker 3:It just been a bummer of a day. I had plans for how I wanted things to go. It didn't work out and I was frustrated and honestly, I was tired. I wanted so bad to just have 30 minutes to sit and not have to do anything. And then the day unraveled and I was disappointed and mad and I'm sorry I came at you.
Speaker 2:Raj, thanks for saying something. I wasn't very nice to you either. I didn't have too different of a day than you. None of the meetings I was in went well, and it felt like I was hearing one negative report after another and I was really discouraged. I could have responded better to you, and instead I just let my discouragement out all over you. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:I hear you. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 2:Raj, thanks for taking care of the dentist appointments and doing all the other things that ruined your day today. I do know you're super tired and have been feeling maxed out. I wish you had a different day too. You most certainly deserve it.
Speaker 3:Bryn, that's really nice to hear you say. I honestly do appreciate it. The same is true for you. I know you've been working hard to keep things on track at work and I bet that meeting made you feel like your hard work isn't paying off.
Speaker 2:Raj True, it does feel like that.
Speaker 3:Bryn, of course I don't want you to feel like I'm saying more of the same at home. You do so much and I appreciate the time you took this weekend to help us get set up for the week, and it does matter to me.
Speaker 2:Raj, thank you, I feel like it does, and it's nice to hear you say that Now it's good. Now I mean, granted, raj and Brynn just didn't like appear here all of a sudden. I mean, we've been working on this with them for quite a while, but but I think if you hear in that they are not, they are not excus in what happened, but they are saying, oh, I recognize how that could have happened and I also recognize what would have felt better. And in that conversation, what they are doing is they are mutually validating one another in their experience.
Speaker 3:In how we got to be there right.
Speaker 2:In the experience of how it went poorly and also in the experience of what they felt like the other was missing Right, and I think that that that is such a key aspect of communication between partners. If you want validation from your partner, you have to offer vulnerability and validation to them. It's so risky, it's so risky and this is the thing. Oftentimes the invalidating process is like well, because you did this, I'll do that. It's just kind of quid pro quo.
Speaker 3:Well, if you self-protect, I'll self-protect, because it does make sense, right?
Speaker 2:And and so all I'm saying is well, just flip that around. If you offer vulnerability and validation, I can offer vulnerability and validation, and if both of you don't sit there and wait for the other to do it, but you offer it, and that is your goal. My goal is to offer you vulnerability and validation is your goal. My goal is to offer you vulnerability and validation, and your partner's goal is to offer you vulnerability and validation. Guess what's going to happen?
Speaker 3:Vulnerability and validation, right, and I think that I do think it's worth stating because I can already hear too and honestly, we hear this a lot. I hear this in my individual clients Like I'm trying'm trying, I feel like I am offering the validation and vulnerability and I'm not matched.
Speaker 3:I think you can say that Like, hey, I'm feeling this, I've really been making a concerted effort and I want this back. I want this to be the cycle, I want this to be our interactional pattern. What's the barrier for you? Do you not feel like I'm offering that?
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that that goes back to the point you know, I think that this, you know, maybe it would be useful to do a show on that, on this vulnerability piece, in terms of the three components that we talked about today, because I think, oftentimes at least, we hear partners say like, hey, I'm being vulnerable and you know what they're not.
Speaker 2:Well, they think they are they're being expressive Right, like they're maybe stating their emotions and expressing their emotions but they're not really accessing the vulnerable thing that they want to say to their partner and again, not maliciously or not on purpose. But I think that that's because we oftentimes misunderstand what vulnerability is.
Speaker 3:Yes, I think that there is truth in that. I also think there is truth in when there is real vulnerability being expressed that isn't being reciprocated. I think that that is very often, if not always, an indicator that there is some resentment that hasn't been resolved.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Because there is a like I can't match. I won't because I know what that means. And maybe that's not even relationally resentment, that could just be self like I can't. I'm having trouble accepting that or receiving that. But something needs to be resolved in that.
Speaker 2:So, if you're listening today, ask yourself this question Do my partner and I get caught up in a pattern of communication where we both invalidate one another? Then ask yourself the question you know what? What? What do we need to do? How can, how can we shift from this, this place of mutually invalidating one another, to a place of offering one another vulnerability and validation, and then walk through, walk through these, um, these categories? In other words, do you feel like vulnerability is difficult for you because it's often hidden, you feel shut down, or maybe it feels too scary to reveal, and then kind of go through, right, okay, what areas maybe could I grow in in terms of offering vulnerability, learning to attune? Is there some resentment to resolve? Should I risk repeating the past to change the future? And then you can get into? Okay, how do we actually achieve this process of vulnerability and validation, which is what we laid out for you in terms of listen for the invalidation, discover the need or feeling, state the need or feeling and then acknowledge and course correct. And that's what Raj and Brynn were able to do today, and you know that is you can do too. Yeah, this really. Yes, it's a case example, a made up scenario, but the result is something that we do see take place for couples all the time, and it can take place for you and your partner too. That we do see take place for couples all the time, and it can take place for you and your partner too.
Speaker 2:Today's show was produced by Aaron and Stephen Mitchell. If you're enjoying the podcast, please hit the follow button and leave us a rating. This helps our content become more visible to others who might enjoy it, and it lets us know how we can keep improving the show. And, as always, we're grateful for you listening. Thanks so much for being with us here today on Couples Counseling for Parents, and remember, working on a healthy couple relationship is good parenting.